Another betting dilemma - Again AKo and TPTK

[Gomez22]

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

UTG ($47.25)
MP1 ($26.00)
MP2 ($16.25)
CO ($22.75)
Button ($64.75)
Gomez22 ($52.00)
BB ($31.00)

Preflop: Gomez22 is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Gomez22 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Gomez22 (poster) raises to $2.25, BB folds, UTG calls $1.75, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($5.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Gomez22 bets $3, UTG raises to $6, Gomez22 raises to $9, UTG calls $3.

Turn: ($23.50) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Gomez22 bets $4, UTG calls $4.

River: ($31.50) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Gomez22 bets $3, UTG calls $3.

Final Pot: $37.50
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $37.50, between UTG and Gomez22.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Gomez22 ($37.50).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Gomez22 shows Kc As (one pair, kings).
UTG shows Kd Qs.
Outcome: Gomez22 wins $37.50. </font>

Someone once mentioined that I like to lose all my chips with TPTK.... I thought this was an example of how I got weak on the river here, and didn't bet enough. The only thing is... I wasn't sure I was ahead at this point. I had no reads on UTG, and I think that generally most players at Paradise are almost as bad(if not worse) than Party NL players.

[SpaceAce]

Gomez22, you have to stop with these weak bets. Bet the pot on that flop. Your reraise on the flop is good but bet the pot on the turn. Cut out this $3 crap. All your hands look alike: "Gomez22 bets $3. Gomez22 bets $3. Gomez22 bets $3." Please don't think I am picking on you, I really want to give helpful advice. You need to bet with more authority. The hands where you go broke with top pair top kicker are usually when you are calling off your money to someone else's bets. It is much better to be the aggressor.

Gomez22, bet the pot.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

Oh, yeah. You can bet more than the pot if you're feeling frisky.

SpaceAce

[cornell2005]

hehe. yes

[HDPM]

I tend to agree, I don't like those dinky bets. But in this case I don't mind them as much on the turn and river. Here's why. UTG grossly misplayed his hand. He had no business limping. He had no business calling the raise. Then Gomez blows the flop IMO w/ a $3 bet and UTG completely blows it with a minimum raise with a garbage hand. I would have bet at least the pot on the flop, and if a good player raised you have to look at letting top pair go. So then gomez does the weakest re-raise possible of only $3 and the guy calls. Now what? You have no idea where you are. Maybe you put the guy on one pair because some of the small NL players play predictably with little bets. So now what on the turn and river? You have to figure UTG is either a terrible player or has a hand that beats you. Turns out he is a terrible player.

I think that in these small NL online games it makes sense to make seemingly ridiculously weak bets on the turn and river. Because if you check the guy might decide to take the pot. If you bet big he might call or raise and you have a problem. If you bet small and catch the guy with a fair hand he likely calls the turn and river. You actually increase your chances of winning the pot because you are more likely to be there at the end with your shaky holding. Top pair out of position is dicey in NL. But when you get the online players who play it like limit, you want to be there at the end because they may well have top pair no kicker or something. So once you get stuck in the hand on that weird flop action I don't mind the turn and river play.

I would still prefer a pot size flop bet and a second barrel fired on the turn probably. But the way the flop went, who knows.

[Gomez22]

I don't think you;re picking on me at all... I just hate the smoothcall whammies you end up with sometimes with TPTK..... Bruiser briught it up in his AK post.

[cornell2005]

what do you mean by smoothcall whamies? wouldnt you somewhat like to see smoothcalls? most of the hands that beat you will raise you on flop or turn. when you bet so small you have no idea whether a 10 or 15 dollar raise over the top means he thinks you have nothing or he has a monster, or somewhere in between. among other reasons

[Gomez22]

What I mean are the times where a player just calls down with what could be a better hand. An example....

You have AKo in MP, raise it 6xBB first in. You get MP &amp; LP callers, both with stacks sizes approxiamte to yours.

Flop comes Q83r

You bet the pot, and both players call

Turn is another blank... say 6 of suit that matches the Q

Who bets here and who lets the hand go?

Also.. what about times where you;re not sure whether an opponent is calling because he has a pair, or he's on a draw???

Example: AcKc from LP. Raise 6xBB first in, button is the only caller. Flop: Js 8h 4s. You bet pot, and button calls. Now the turn comes 9d. What's your move here?

This is the part that gets me in trouble with AK...... From EP, I can't determine post flop play with a board that misses me, but doesn't look like it should have helped anyone that sanely would call a PF raise.

From LP or last to act, action with AK is easy, but up front, it gives me headaches. Taht's the gist of things for the most part.

'Mez

[cornell2005]

imo the first is an easy check fold most of the time unless you have reason to think otherwise, or theres a particular draw on the board

second is a bit tougher, and a judgement call. you could fire another one and drop it if its called or raised, or just check fold. either way, over a bunch of hands you welcome callers if you hit, whether they are on draws or hit part of the flop. you just have to think when the potential draw hits or when you get raised back.
in both cases, a fold with AK and TPTK is most often the play imo. sounds like you are a bit of a calling/small betting station when it coems to these hands. maybe try more aggression in terms of bet amounts and less reluctance to fold it

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you;re picking on me at all... I just hate the smoothcall whammies you end up with sometimes with TPTK..... Bruiser briught it up in his AK post.

[/ QUOTE ]

The money you lose by not making people pay you when you have a hand is going to far outweigh the money you save when you're beaten. Yes, you will lose once in a while when someone pairs their kicker or whatever but most of the time they won't get there so make them pay to see cards. Hands that already have your top pair beaten will raise you on the flop or turn 90% of the time.

You've decided to play pot limit and no limit poker. You will go broke sometimes. Period, dot, end of sentence. If you spend your time fearing going broke, you won't be successful.

SpaceAce

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
You will go broke sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO... Been there alot already... lost $80 in 1 session at Paradise today, and $35 the other night at Empire. No big deal regrading those - I lost to some draws, and lost another all-in against 2 opponents with the nut-flush draw on the flop, where I was getting almost 4-1 on the flop, but I DO worry that any mistakes I make are greatly amplified now that I'm playing no-limit.

I guess I need to pick up on what things mean in NL games. In limit, I can usually figure a flop call or raise or turn raise and what it signifies, but in NL, it seems that they don't always mean the same thing.... For example: Someone raising the flop in limit against 1 other opponent with a flush draw is usually not a very good play. In NL, however, it CAN be a good play based on different circumstances between the 2 games.

Finding that difference is what I think I really need to work on. It's this that makes me ask some of the questions that I do. It's not that I want to know HOW to play in a certain situation, or a range of situations, but the WHY that I feel is important.

Maybe I'm rambling, but I think I explained it in a somewhat clearer way here... and if not, I'llget there through trial and error and experience.

Thanks for the comments, though. They do give me something to think about.

'Mez

[cornell2005]

ok, from your posts it seems like you might be tending to see the board, and thinking "wow he could have alot of different hands that would coincide with that raise here, and that have me beat". that is probably an oversimplification, and might not be correct at all, but ill just say this
for this hand, think back to "what could he have called the raise with and have min-raised me on the flop? the most likley options are KQ and KA. either way, you dont have to show excessive fear, and KA is only a very small possibility. he may have KJ, and currently he is ahead, but thats a smaller possibility.

so instead of fearing the whole way through the pot, make one pot sized bet on the turn and see where hes at. if he has KQ or KA, he wll likely just call, and if he has KJ youll see a decent sized raise come back at you sometimes.
so, you are winning money by doing this strictly by the odds, plus you are gaining some good info. when you play so softly, you dont maximize your winnings, you gain no info, and you fold alot of hands to people that sense your weakness and bluff at you.
i feel that your not entirely convinced of betting a little more aggressivly post flop, hope this helps some

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
i feel that your not entirely convinced of betting a little more aggressivly post flop, hope this helps some

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it helps, thank you. It's not that I'm NOT convinced of ebtting aggressively on the flop, but there are situations that confuse me at this point, especially against your more... how shall I say this.... "loose &amp; lame-brained" opponents.

In this particular situation, I can't see making a pot-sized bet on the turn, because that's half my current stack. Considering that, and the fact the we both have similar stack sizes, what would be acceptable bets for the turn and or river? I pot size if correct, like I said, that's about half my stack... and a touch more than half his remaining stack.

I guess the reason I question this so much is because of being told that I like to bet my whole stack on TPTK.... Maybe that remark on this board by someone else has me concerned too much about my betting habits....

Am I on to something, or am I missing the forest for the trees?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, yeah. You can bet more than the pot if you're feeling frisky.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't even have to bet the whole pot, there is really nothing wrong with betting something like $15 on the turn. Its enough to show you are serious and give someone bad odds if they are behind, the $3 crap is just asking them to make a big raise which you don't want to have to call or just suck out on you with the odds to do so.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Why did you way underbet the pot on the turn? I don't like the turn play. Bet more. Perhaps even reraise more on the flop.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[LarsVegas]

I think the big mistake here is the minimum-reraise out of position on the flop. When you play it the way you do, you should bet a bit larger on the turn and either bet larger on the river too when only called on the turn or check with a view to catch a bluff/misplaced value bet.

Once you play the way you do on the flop AND the turn, the river play is definitely to make a larger bet between $10-$15. The reason I don't want to bet more than $15 is that you would like the option of folding to a river raise, and even if you are intent on calling a raise, you would still like your opponent to think that you could fold to a river raise. This won't be the case if he's left with $31 against a $20 bet from you on the river.

lars

[jdl22]

Based on what I've read from you and others it seems the problem isn't betting your whole stack with TPTK it's calling your whole stack with it.

Back to your bets with this hand, imagine if you were the guy with KQ here. Let's make a bad assumption that you have arrived at the turn playing it like he did. You've seen the SB make a reasonable raise preflop (which you called for some reason) and bet half the pot on the flop. Seemed weak so you decided to try to steal it and raised him (weakly) the minimum. The SB raised back so he must have something, but it was the minimum so he's not too excited about it. Now it gets more interesting. The SB bet out 1/6 of the pot on the turn so obviously he is none to confident he has the best hand. A bet of 2/21 of the pot on the river confirms this.

The point I'm making, albeit poorly, is that if you were in the UTG seat and for some reason you were still in the hand at the turn or river what would you do if you saw those bets? If I were him I would probably go over the top and put in a huge raise, maybe even all my chips. What would you do if you faced a big raise on the turn or river? Most if not all good players put in huge bets/raises when they sense weakness in their opponent. If you're up against them making this kind of move is only asking for trouble.

I know most online players at these blinds are terrible. The way to make money however isn't betting weakly, it's putting in bets and having them make ridiculous calls like this guy probably would have.

[Gomez22]

I underbet the pot on the turn because it's situations like these that really give me fits. To explain:

The pot on the turn is $23.50. At that point, I have $40.75 and UTG has $35.50 at this point in our stacks. The pot was a little more than half my stack, and about 2/3 of his stack. I think that I was at the point of wondering if it's worth it to put all my chips at risk for TPTK or not.

Now, looking back on it, I think a more realistic bet would have been in the $15-$20 area on the turn... not half of my stack, but in the neighborhood of half of his.

I think I basically get caught up in the stack size conundrum alot right now. Whether stacks are deep or shallow, I never am positive of the play to make when it comes to stack sizes, I guess.

'Mez

[cornell2005]

ideally you only worry about making +EV moves and dont take the possibility of losing your stack into account
this of course depends if you have the bankroll to suffer 5 or 10 or more rebuys. if your bankroll is fine, then forget stacks and play the hand the most profitable way. but yea i see your point