New, looking for guidance/advice etc.....

[sublime]

Hi Guys/Gals,

With the advent of poker on TV, I imagined that it would draw more fish to the game. I have little knowlede of the game and started by reading Jones' book. However limit bored the living hell out of me. NL on the other end seems a tad bit more exciting.

I am not looking to make a killing or anythign like that, I just want to learn the nuance of NL hold em so that I would be able to enter Internet games/tourneys etc...

Any advice/feedback is apprectaied....

thanks

[slavic]

Poker played well tends to be Boring. I hate to tell you that but it tends to be true.

Now to your question. Search this forum for Mason's book reviews. There are a couple of books on NL tourney and ring play that he rates fairly high. The other book you'll want to get is Tournament Poker for Advanced Players if you want to seriously take on tournaments.

I find them fun to play but a bit pointless for the time spent.

[OnlinePokerCoach]

You might want to learn limit first anyway. For one thing, if you ever want to play live casinos, no limit is harder to find. I do not have it anywhere near me. Limit holdem on the other hand is everywhere.

[SirArthur]

Go to Poker Stars, start an account, play on the play money tables until you get a feel for the game.
They have daily freeroll tournaments (many NL) where you can gain some valuable experience for free of course.

Then when you feel comfortable playing for real money, deposit the minimum ($50) and begin playing the 1 cent/2 cent NL games. PS is one of the few sites that has these micro/micro games.
Pay for your tuition as cheaply as possible, and fortunately PS affords that opportunity.
Move up slowly in limits until you feel comfortable at your new level and have the BR to support it.

Good luck...

[krazyace5]

Boring is right, I played about a 200 hand session today and only won 8%, 16 hands. Just try to keep focused,

[sublime]

Thanks guys.....

LL is just to boring for me, I Understand how the game works and all and dont want to get in the habit of becoming to tight of a player. I feel that NL is going to get more and more popular and hence tha +ev is going to increase.

I was persusing "supersystem" earlier and the chapter on NL seems like gold....very aggresive though....any thoughts?

[asdf1234]

[ QUOTE ]
I Understand how the game works and all and dont want to get in the habit of becoming to tight of a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't play sufficiently tight, you're not going to win.

[HDPM]

You probably should not start playing poker. You will probably be a loose aggressive loser. I don't mean this as an insult, but your expectations are way out of line and your posts seem to indicate you have an attitude about the game that will lead to trouble. You haven't played much but limit is too boring? You haven't played much but worry about being too tight? Just want to learn the nuances of NL? Well, devote your life to learning poker. That's all it takes.

My guess is that you will make a better tournament player. Learn when to shove your stack in and get the thrill of gambling. You probably won't win. But you will have some big wins along the way and some thrills. You never know, you might win something huge. I don't see big no limit cash games in your future. Sorry.

If you apply yourself a little you should be able to stay in action in the small internet games tho. You probably won't find these exciting enough.

[Homer]

Boring is right, I played about a 200 hand session today and only won 8%, 16 hands. Just try to keep focused.

A good player should win around 8% of his/her hands. Just wait until you win only 6-7 hands in a 200 hand session. This will happen, and much more often than you might think.

[blackaces13]

I've played 200 of $.5/1 and won O hands. I'd imagine this is fairly common, I only voluntarily play about 20% of hands and if there is a lot of preflop raising I play less. So you sit down for 200 hands, get bad cards, play maybe 30-35 hands, and win none. It happens.

[blackaces13]

Read that section again, he advises you to play very tight, however on the few hands he tells you to play he is super AGGRESSIVE.

Tight and aggressive are 2 different things and you want to be BOTH. Play very, very few hands and play them HARD. Basically put pressure on your opponnent everytime you are in the pot and try to take it down, but never play too many hands. I could be wrong but I actually think most NL strategies require you to play significantly TIGHTER than you would in a limit game.

[sublime]

I am just starting out and will admit that I dont know much. If I wanted to play at night 1-2 hours maybe 3x a week and make some exrta cash (and for enjoyment) is LL or NL the better alternative?

I am totally new, and am willing to follow any advice. I am not fooled into thinking this is easy, I just know there is money to be made.

What should I do? Go buy Jones book again?

cmon guys we all started somewhere......

[ctv1116]

I'd suggest starting with limit. NL is extremely high-risk. Of course there's high-reward for the good players, but you aren't that yet. You have to be as patient, if not more patient, in NL than in limit. I play 3 tables at once, that gives me plenty of action, or you can play short-handed if you only want to play one table. However, short-handed favors more skilled players than full-ring.

Basically, read WLLH, and the threads on here, especially the micro-limits board. For some background, read this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=560368&page=2&view=expand ed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=) It has a bunch of the best micro-limit advice available on this board. If you understand and utilize the advice in there, you will be well on your way to becoming a winning player.

Good luck!

[sublime]

Thanks CT,

MAJORKONGS post was excellent. I am very new and still a bit confused though. If I read between the lines is WLLH being "snickered" at? or is it just my interpretation.

Also quick question, say I am at a .25/.50 table, or .50/1. What are the odds that I am going to sit down (online p-poker. stars etc.) and face competition that is "sharp"?

[brian0729]

Hi Sublime,

MAJORKONGS post was excellent. I am very new and still a bit confused though. If I read between the lines is WLLH being "snickered" at? or is it just my interpretation.

Jones's book is highly recommended here by a lot of players. However a lot of those same players think that the book is a little loose, especially on the pre flop side, but a great first book for any serious new student to the game.

[Ed Miller]

If I read between the lines is WLLH being "snickered" at?

I certainly do not snicker at WLLH. If you are a brand new player, WLLH can help you improve your results drastically... often going from a 1 or 2 bet per hour loser to a break even or slightly winning player.

For the serious student who already plays decently and wants to move his game to the next level, WLLH is not quite as helpful. Some of the advice, specifically much of his advice on the turn (which involves a lot of checking) is too passive. In general, Jones sees too many monsters under the bed (he often assumes that if loose players call your flop bets, they have to have you beaten, even if you have a strong hand like top pair or an overpair).

But for a beginning player just trying to get his head around the fundamentals, WLLH is simple, well-written, and effective.

[Ed Miller]

Jones's book is highly recommended here by a lot of players. However a lot of those same players think that the book is a little loose, especially on the pre flop side, but a great first book for any serious new student to the game.

Actually, I think the preflop advice is actually reasonably good now (in the 2nd edition). It is better all-purpose preflop advice than many of the other low-limit books on the market have (Warren's book and Carson's book, for instance). It is a bit oversimplified, but oversimplification is a "design decision" that he clearly made throughout the book. Furthermore, that decision is actually probably a pretty good one, given his audience.

[Saborion]

A good player should win 8 % of his hands?
Hmm... then I'm FAR behind. I only win between 3.3-3.6 % of my hands. Although I believe I might be a bit too tight pre-flop with only 10.7 % VP$IP at 3/6 and 13.2 % VP$IP at 2/4. I'm making decent money. I have a decent win rate, I think. Not sure which sort of hands to start playing more.

[sublime]

So in other words, I should shut up read the book and then come back with a little playing time under my belt and the basic knowledge of LLH built?

How about Abduls preflop strategy? could I just use that, get my feet wet and come back with questions?

also I read a post on here about POT ODDS. Saying the quick method to knowing these are equating your "outs" with the odds? i.e 1 out = 40/1 etc.......

[RydenStoompala]

Read Doyle Brunson or anyone else who interests you. Play the $5 + $0.50 tournies (single table) on line. Then play the larger tournies. Keep playing against larger and better players and you will find, as I did, that it's an awesome game. Mid limit in a B&M cardroom is still my favorite place to be. But, the NL games online are excellent.

[slavic]

How about Abduls preflop strategy?

I'll assume your talking about Abdul's preflop chart of openers. He is talking about bringing these hands in for a raise (open) when your position and cards match the chart. So a portion of the EV you expect is simply from the blinds giving up pre-flop or on the flop a good portion of the time. In live low limits I don't see that happen much.

Now his positional analysis is an important way of thinking about your starting hand requirements so for that reason I do like his chart. BUT it's too loose IMHO and puts players in bad positions while they are learning the game.

I think the opposite of Lee Jone's book. His watching out for the next monster seems to get a player to Weak Tight status, and while this is a bigtime improvement for the typical new player it creates problems later.

[sublime]

so where do I start?

is abduls chart good? if its not tight enough what changes should be made?

[LargeCents]

I am doing the exact same thing. I am switching from limit to no-limit. I have been playing no-limit (micro-limit) for almost a week now, and it is a whole different ballgame. It takes much more skill and patience than limit. The crazy thing is that you can fold 20 hands in a row, then suddenly be all-in for all your chips. You have to learn to switch gears in a hurry. Whereas in limit hold 'em, you almost become like a machine after you have logged enough hours. You just fine-tune your decisions based on the player personalities you are up against. In no-limit, it is much more about reading your opponent(s). The cards almost don't matter, when you are calling a stone-bluff or punishing a weak draw. I suggest doing both limit and no-limit because one will help you appreciate the other.

[slavic]

When I say the chart is too loose I'm focusing around Button and SB play. If you just read the chart it would seem correct to play A3o on the button after 3 or 4 limpers.

My personal feeling is I may play it here depending on the players, but it's a hand that is easily dominated in low limit play. However if I was opening on the button I would raise it as perscribed in the table. So if your going to look at the table for first in advice it's not too bad, though I'm still not open raising T7 from the button. If you look at it as a play chart it has some issues.

Now if you read HEPFAP, the starting hands are a little more general, you are allowed to limp, and David and Mason make it a point to say you have to have a hand that you would raise with to call a raise. Keeping those items in mind along with their hand selection tables should keep you out of trouble until you start thinking about the individual hands.

[sublime]

I want to be tight/aggressive

It was mentioned that jones book is recommended for tight play only problem is it may ne to tight after ther flop.

So I was thinking I may be better off just using abduls pre flop chart and learning as i go by posting hands here etc....

I have a general "pots odds" chart that was posted on this site and a pre-flop chart......would this adequate for a .50/1 game at PP or a .25/.50 at PS?