Terrorism Again

[El Barto]

You have all noticed that the train attacks in Spain that killed 300+ people was on the 2 1/2 year anniversay of the 9/11 attack.

[nicky g]

and, as the BBC pointed out, 911 days after 9/11. the death toll is a bit below 200, not 300, as i understand it.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[andyfox]

Could it be the Basque separatists picked the day to defer suspicion onto Al-Qaeda?

[Taxman]

Of course not, they're all one big terrorist organization conspiring to destroy the US. That's why we need to keep GW in office. He's the only president we've ever had with a lengthy track record of fighting the Al Qaeda.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I hope I am detecting sarcasm from you taxman, cause if not you are scaring me, what did they do to you?


on a more serious note, what happened in Spain is a catastrophic tragedy. I hope the bring whoever did it to justice. This seems every bit as bad as 9/11.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

ETA hasn't shunned the spotlight in the past.

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
...on a more serious note, what happened in Spain is a catastrophic tragedy. I hope the bring whoever did it to justice. This seems every bit as bad as 9/11.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree. Now, how should Spain go about the following:

1. Bringing those responsible for this to justice;

2. Seeking retribution and recompense for these acts;

3. Preventing these types of acts from happening in the future.

I am quite curious, because whatever the U.S. has done in efforts to solve similar problems has created quite an uproar. This is Spain's chance to show everyone how its done.

[adios]

Possible but I would put it at less than 50%. This would represent a radical departure from ETA's (Basque terrorist group) normal tactics. They typically attack judges and politicians and give warnings of civilian attacks. At least that's my understanding.

Bali, Baghdad, Najaf, Karachi, Istanbul, Mombasa, Jerusalem, Riyadh, Casablanca, New York, Washington and now Madrid have all been target by terrorists in this century. Some clowns make jokes and use sarcasm in reacting to these events. Many more mourn the dead and abhor the violence as the outrage trancends political boundaries in civilized society.

[Gamblor]

I noticed the conspicuous omission of Buenos Aires, Munich, and Entebbe.

Never mind the daily attacks in Israel and the territories, for example, the two teenagers (!) the other day who stabbed an Israeli taxi driver who picked them up and were subsequently held at gunpoint, yet surprisingly weren't killed, by the murderous Nazi fascist "settlers" until the police arrived.

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
I for example, the two teenagers (!) the other day who stabbed an Israeli taxi driver who picked them up and were subsequently held at gunpoint, yet surprisingly weren't killed, by the murderous Nazi fascist "settlers" until the police arrived.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, as your statment reads...they were killed once the police arrived?

[adios]

Of course you're right. Again I've learned much from your posts.

[Taxman]

Me, sarcastic? Bush is great! /images/graemlins/wink.gif As for the more serious issue of the attack, it was indeed tragic and I surely do hope that Spain takes strong and decisive action, with better results than we have found thus far.

[ThaSaltCracka]

has anyone else heard that many in Spain are blaming the attack on the U.S. because Spain supported the war on Terrorism. This is starting to get way out of hand.

[ChristinaB]

[ QUOTE ]
has anyone else heard that many in Spain are blaming the attack on the U.S. because Spain supported the war on Terrorism. This is starting to get way out of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
The government of Spain had a choice of supporting us or being wimps like France/Germany. I respect them for their choice.

It is true, you can sometimes be safer by doing nothing - you can be passive after the flop, but it is a poor strategy.

[ComedyLimp]

It was always obvious that attacking Iraq would increase terrorism rather reduce it so to somehow conflate -- as many seemingly seek to do -- the Madrid tragedy with whether we should or should not have started the Iraq war is specious.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't avoid doing something becuase it might bring reprissal from terror groups.

[UTGunner]

[ QUOTE ]
The government of Spain had a choice of supporting us or being wimps like France/Germany. I respect them for their choice.



[/ QUOTE ]

The current Spanish government has just been voted out. Spain may no longer be such a close ally.

Is Tony Blair next to go?

[nicky g]

Maybe, but it's slightly different here; Blair is pretty much as right-wing as Aznar, yet has no serious party to te left of him. The conservative opposition backed the war and are just as gung-ho on the "war", so are not much of an alternative for a protest vote. Though a large protest vote for the Lib Dems, the third party, could put the Conservatives in power by taking away Labour support. Which is not a hugely attractve proposition either. So much for electoral choice. One option si that Blair would stand down and someone less "tainted" could run, if a Spain-style scenario looks likely.

[ComedyLimp]

"Blair is pretty much as right-wing as Aznar"

Actually Aznar is closer to Michael Howard than Blair -- Blair may have gone temporarily insane and started a war but in terms of social policy, health, education, etc. he is still way to the left of Aznar.

[nicky g]

I meant in terms of the war but I don't know that I agree. On all the things that you mention, and others, Blair has implemented a range of right-wing policies - pesudo-privatisation in the NHS (PFI etc), top-up fees for students, draconian "anti-terror" legislation etc that the Tories would never have got away with. I don't know very much about Aznar but assuming he is a typical European right-wing conservative (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't see an enormous amount of difference between that and Blair. The only areas you can really pin down Howard as being even more right-wing on than Blair is asylum, which they've both gone beskerk about, and Europe, which I don;t really see as a left-right issue (though it's treated as such in the UK). In some areas the Tories are even slightly to the left of Blair.

[ComedyLimp]

It was my impression that "My friend Ansar" as Mr Bush calls him is a small government, tax cutting, economy liberalising, free marketeer type. Blair is much more of a "Tax & Spend" to support significant expansion of health and education (even though we like to pretend he isn't so the middle classes don't get scared and vote Tory).

They are great mates though -- Blair even went ot Aznar's daughter's wedding -- so it wouldn't surprise me if Aznar supported the war becuase Tony asked him to in much the same way Blair supported the war because Bush asked him to. It's sort of war starting food chain.

[nicky g]

It's true that Blair has invested surpluses and so on in services, rather than using them to cut taxes, so can be distinguished from the conservative right in that sense. But it's worth remembering that taxes in the UK are comparatively quite low compared to the continent anyway so in that sense he has less of a job to do (although if memory serves me I think they're also very low in Spain; certainly they are on booze /images/graemlins/smile.gif). Blair's certainly extraordinarily pro-business and big money - he seems in awe of them - and he's not reversed many of the major Thatcherite/Tory reforms. Also a lot of the EexpansionE of the NHS has basically handed over control of services to private companies, along with favourbale terms and great wodges of cash. But I suppose a lot of those are more default right-wing positions than active ones. I didn;t realise they were actually personal friends, that's interesting. Does Aznar speak English?

[Gamblor]

For example, the two teenagers (!) the other day who stabbed an Israeli taxi driver who picked them up and were subsequently held at gunpoint, yet surprisingly weren't killed, by the murderous Nazi fascist "settlers" until the police arrived.

Okay, edit the above to read:

For example, the two teenagers (!) the other day who stabbed an Israeli taxi driver who picked them up and were subsequently held at gunpoint until the police arrived. It should be noted, surprisingly, that the attackers weren't killed by the murderous Nazi fascist "settlers" but rather only detained until a trial date could be set, at which point they will be free to choose representation and will be subject to a court that operates separately from the government, and follows a rule of law free from government influence, a staple of all free and democratic countries.

Don't you realize everytime you give me the opportunity, I'll further shove my cause down your throat, even if it was a joke?

Side note: If you're interested in understanding the Arab mentality, as I'm sure anyone who ever heard of 9/11 is, I can sum it up best as follows:

The suicide bomber who struck yesterday in Ashdod will likely go down in Palestinian history as a hero. Even worse, his great great grandchildren will learn about their ancestor, who was murdered by the evil Zionist entity, and be even more enraged and incensed and driven to kill Jews. It has never been desperation that drives the suicide bombers. It is the belief that every death, every problem they have, every dollar they don't have is caused by Jews.

[ComedyLimp]

"Side note: If you're interested in understanding the Arab mentality"

I'm sure you mean "mentality of some sections of the Arab world" rather than all "Arab mentality". Certainly I know many Arabs who would emphatically disagree with the quoted view andf think it patently absurd.

[Taxman]

The War on Terrorism and the war in Iraq are different. France and Germany supported us post 9/11 as did nearly every nation.

[Gamblor]

I was referring to the mentality of the Arabs of that specific section of the world.

But in general, the Islamic part of the Arab nation (and the Christian Arabs who live within such a culture) is dedicated to ancestry and lineage, and each person is the sum of his parts, so to speak.

This is why Osama bin Laden refers to the "War on Terror" as a "Crusade", why the Islamists refer to W as continuing the War on Islam his father began in 1991, and why Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and Yasser Arafat are shortened versions of what is usually 5-6 ancestral names.

My opinion is that what truly underlies this whole phenomenon, is that the Arab nation in the earlier part of the last millenium was the most influential and imperialist nation on the planet (spreading west to Morocco and east to Malaysia and the Philippines). Now that the power and wealth and comfort has slowly shifted toward the west, first to Great "Britannia" for a few centuries and now to the United States, the Arab powers that be are jealous, angry, and after hearing about how powerful the Arabs were a milleniunm ago, they want it back. Aladdin never let the Americans invade, why should we?

Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but I think its at the heart of what's going on.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
The government of Spain had a choice of supporting us or being wimps like France/Germany. I respect them for their choice.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think the reason Spain was attacked is because they are "wimps", essentially a passive country. Al Qaeda knew if they attacked Spain they would likely get little if any response. They probably thought that Spain would do exactly what it is doing now, distancing themselves from the U.S. and the war on terrorisms. I think Spain is a soft country, they don't seem willing to stand up and fight for its self. Instead they take the easy road out, blame the U.S., and further isolate themselves. I don't think Spain was the ally that everyone thought them to be.
Some people say France is weak and a bunch of pussies because they didn't want to support the Iraq war, well I am starting to think that the opposite is true. I think them actively opposing the war shows their strength. France right now has troops in Afghanistan working with U.S. troops, as well as other nations troops, actively looking for Osama Bin Laden. They have the resolve to fight terrorisms, they have the courage to fight the terrorists, just like the U.S. and Britain.
I would be very surprised if you see a terrorists attack in the U.S., Britain, or France any time soon, because Al Qaeda knows that the hammmer will drop on them hard and fast if they do. Instead Al Qaeda will attack soft countries, ones that they know will bend over and take. Spain needs to be strong right now. They have the support of the rest of the world, so they should use it and fight these fuckers, instead of pulling back into their shell and point fingers.

[UTGunner]

Yeah, if it weren't for the French helping Americans in their revolution, they'd still be speaking English!

[Gamblor]

I forgot to include the result of this attitude.

The current Arab influentials are benefitting from a society in which the rulers (be they government or kingdom) determine what information enters and what doesn't enter the public consciousness. As a result, the public's opinion is subject to the whims of the rulers.

See my "A ray of light? Or more propaganda?" post last week for a case in point. Much of the Arab intelligentsia nowadays is learning to criticize the information they receive from their rulers, especially regarding the Jewish world.

Just shows you what a little education can do.

[nicky g]

"This is why Osama bin Laden refers to the "War on Terror" as a "Crusade""

And why, I wonder, did Bush refer to it as a crusade? Could the two possibly be related? Surely not.

[Gamblor]

I didn't say anything about Bush, if you'll recall.

I, for one, don't think you're so far off.

[Rickmalaga]

Anyone ever thought of burying muslim suicide attackers inside a pork so they will not be allowed into Paradise?
We should really start fighting those bastards with every means available and use their fanatic religious supersticions to try change their minds.
But I guess that some idiotic civil rights responsible will say that this would be inhumane and is against all good judgement.
Then again, on the other hand you might say that anyone dumb enough to believe he will be given 70 virgins in paradise deserves to die for being totally stupid. I am 44 years old and I have never, never known a place where you see 70 virgins ( of legal age) together.