i must be doing something wrong

[jaydoggie]

i think the problem is i play too tight.
my starting hand requirements at a full table are.
AK/AQ AA-77.

I will play other big A or K in LP.

Ordinarily what happens is I get AK or AQ. Raise 4-5x BB preflop. Miss the flop and either lose half my chips chasing (which i pretty much stopped doing) or fold.

then the blinds come and come and come and come and come. soon im the short stack at the table and we are 4 or 5 handed. then the blinds are higher. my hand selection opens up a bit. i attempt a steal, get called miss flop, or get involved with a hand and lose half my stack. then im in allin/fold mode. and i move in and lose. sometimes im ahead, sometimes im behind but i always lose.

it seems over the past few weeks ive become a worse player. this has happened to me before, and ultimately i become alot stronger of a player. but right now im in that slump.

does anyone else experience this? they come up with some new plays, moves, thoughts, tactics. and then feel they are losing (perhaps doing them too much) but then later, you find the right balance and feel a stronger player?

thanks

[cferejohn]

Good to have stopped chasing. You should be able to pick a few pots with flop bluffs after missing the flop with AK.

I would play any pair in LP in an unraised pot, especially in a more passive game where a raise seems unlikely. The implied odds of hitting a set are huge. Generally in LP when the blinds are low, you can play more hands, like sueted (or even unsuited) connectors. These are usually very easy to lay down on an unfavorable flop (I hope you can get away from 2nd or 3rd pair in a multi-way pot), but if you flop 2 pair or better you can bust someone.

It sounds like you are going through some bad luck. Try to ignore what happens and keep track of how often you are a favorite when you get all in. You could even start keeping track of the EV on your all-in hands (i.e. if you get all-in as a 60% favorite, your EV is .6*(pot size)) - (how much money you put in). If this number is generally positive, then you are doing fine and your luck will eventualy turn. If it is negative over a reasonable sample size, re-evaluate.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems over the past few weeks ive become a worse player. this has happened to me before, and ultimately i become alot stronger of a player. but right now im in that slump.

does anyone else experience this?

[/ QUOTE ]
this has been happening to me for about the past month. My main problem was playing hands I shouldn't have, especially out of posistion. Also over betting with hands, thus costing myself too much of my stack.
I have been trying to work on these aspects of my game. I placed 2nd in two of two tourneys tonight, so hopefully it is turning around.
Maybe take some time off from palying, maybe a couple days. Also what helped me was discussing other peoples hands on here, ask people questions about hands people posted on here. There was someone elses thread on here that I asked something about more for myself than for him(sorry), but its all about asking questions pertaining to certain situations. For me just talking about playing is more contructive than actually playing.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the problem is i play too tight.
my starting hand requirements at a full table are.
AK/AQ AA-77.

I will play other big A or K in LP.

Ordinarily what happens is I get AK or AQ. Raise 4-5x BB preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

What buy-in, what site?

Unless it's level 1 or 2, I think this raise is too big. 3xBB is plenty, IMO, if you are planning on getting out if you miss the flop.

Say you have T1000, and the blinds are T50. A third of the time you're going to make a pair or better. If you're going to get out if you miss, 2/3 of the time you just gave up a quarter of your stack. The question is, are you going to make more than 500 chips in profit when you hit (that's what you're losing the 2/3 times you miss)? With the big raise, if an A falls, you probably won't get much action unless someone holds AQ or maybe AJ. If a K falls, you might get action from KQ, but a lot of people will fold KQ to a 5xBB raise.

I dunno, this isn't any kind of quantitative analysis but in general I think you're telegraphing your big aces to raise that much, and hurting your prospects for action when you hit, as well as leaking chips pretty heavily if you're not expert in jockeying for the pot if you miss.

[ QUOTE ]

does anyone else experience this? they come up with some new plays, moves, thoughts, tactics. and then feel they are losing (perhaps doing them too much) but then later, you find the right balance and feel a stronger player?

thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

All the time. The pendulum swings back and forth wrt to what to play when, how to play certain situations, etc. Hopefully I will converge on something over time.

eastbay

[CrisBrown]

Hi jay,

<<CAVEAT LECTOR: I am a very aggressive player, and if that isn't your style and you're not comfortable and confident playing that way, then what I'm about to say probably won't work for you.>>

It may be that you're simply running into a string of bad beats -- they do happen -- and/or it may be that you are tilting just a bit in the direction of weak-tight poker, which can be deadly in NL play.

When I tilt -- and everyone does at times -- it's almost invariably in the direction of playing too tight. I play so few hands that I get impatient and desperate, and that leads to overplaying the hands I do play. This is actually a fairly common form of tilt, though it's not talked about too often, and it's every bit as dangerous as going wild and chasing too much.

Obviously, when the table is loosey-goosey, you want to be playing tight, solid, ABC poker. At a loose table, you can afford to play a few more good drawing hands (e.g.: middle and small pairs, suited connectors, suited Aces and Kings) from late position, if you can get in cheap. The implied odds if you hit them are tremendous. But you want to tighten up in big cards, which don't play as well in a multi-way pot, and play your "trouble pairs" (QQ-99) more for set value than for pair value. Obviously, at a loose table, you're not going to do much (if any) bluffing. But when you have an improved hand (two pair or better), you'll be betting for value more, because the looser players will call you with weaker hands.

When the table tightens up, though, you have to adjust your game. Now you're going to be seeing mostly heads-up pots, and pairs and high cards play better there. You'll want to avoid the drawing hands, as tight players won't pay you off if you hit them (except for sets or hidden straights). You can bluff and semi-bluff more -- most of my pots come this way -- but be careful with your value bets because tighter players are playing stronger hands (on average), and they are less likely to call with hands that are beaten.

Most of my chips come on bluffs and semi-bluffs once the table (or a pot) gets tight. If it's folded around to me in MP or LP, I'll often raise with any two cards that are likely to be live, provided I don't mind a reraise. That is, I'll raise with very good hands (where I'd welcome a reraise), and very weak hands (where I won't feel bad if I have to muck them).

However, you need to be careful with this. If I've just stolen a pot with J5o from the CO, I'm not going to try to steal again in the same orbit with a hand like K6o. I'm more likely to get called that second time, and I want a hand that has some potential if called. So while I wouldn't steal a second time in close succession with K6o, I might do it with 76s, because if I am called, at least 76s has some potential to make a hand on the flop.

And of course, when you're called on a steal-raise, you have to be ready to get off that hand cheaply.

If I'm first to act on the flop -- or if I'm second to act and it's checked to me -- I'm usually going to bet at the flop. I represented a strong hand with the pre-flop raise, so I'm going to follow through on it for one stab. But unless I've hit something, that's the end of it. If I'm reraised, I'll lay down the hand. If I'm called, I'm not putting another chip into that pot unless my hand improves dramatically on the turn and/or river.

If I'm second to act and the pre-flop caller bets at me, then I'm going to think about the player, the board, my hand, the relative stacks, the phase of the tournament, etc., and make my decision. I usually won't make a bluff raise at the flop, although I might call a smallish bet at the flop and bet the turn if it's checked to me.

What I don't want to do is get pulled into a big pot with a weak hand. If it looks as if this is going to be a monster pot, and I don't have a solid hand, I want to get away from my steal with a minimum loss. When I'm playing my style of poker, I'm not desperate. I know I'm going to take another shot at a pot soon, so there's no reason to pour good money after bad when I get caught on a steal.

And that's when I'm most comfortable at a poker table. I don't feel as if I'm at the mercy of the dealer, and I don't feel pressured to overplay "the one good hand I'm going to get." I'll take my shots, picking up little pots along the way, and sooner or later I'm either going to catch a big hand or hit a big flop, and make a big pot.

When I go on tilt, I give all of that up and surrender to the mercy of the cards. And for me, that's a terrible way to play.

Cris

[Stoneii]

[ QUOTE ]
like sueted (or even unsuited) connectors

[/ QUOTE ]

Food for thought! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[heyrocker]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the problem is i play too tight.
my starting hand requirements at a full table are.
AK/AQ AA-77.

I will play other big A or K in LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what limits you're playing at, but personally in the first three rounds I will almost never raise period. However I will call in for one bet with anything with potential. Any decent ace or king, any suited ace or king, any two suited connectors, any two high cards. In the first few rounds of a low limit SNG raising 5x BB isn't going to do anything. All the people that would have called 10 will call 50 too. So play it like a drawing hand. Let in as many people as possible cheaply and when you hit come out swinging. Otherwise just drop it and try again. Then around round 4 or 5 start playing the agressive game. This catches people off guard too, because I've been so passive the whole time. Sure sometimes I won't hit any flops and it will be up to 50/100 and I've only got 500 chips. Thats OK, I can make do.

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone else experience this? they come up with some new plays, moves, thoughts, tactics. and then feel they are losing (perhaps doing them too much) but then later, you find the right balance and feel a stronger player?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure everyone does this, and should. You should always be evaluating your game and trying new things.

[jaydoggie]

5$ starts. only raise 4-5X in first 2 rounds 10/20 15/30. then when in round 3 25/50 i go 3X.

reasons for going 5X with JJ/QQ preflop. i will get called by a weak ace. reason i go 5X with AK,AQ. i will get called by a dominated ace.

[Big Mo]

[ QUOTE ]
i think the problem is i play too tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

Baby it's been a long time since I've been accused of this. I promise I ain't too tight.

[cferejohn]

Oh my god. I now have that picture burned into my retinas. At least it is only a thumbnail.

Oh, and Stoneii, puns are the lowest form of humor. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

Excellent posts Cris,
I try to employ several of the same tactics you described. If the cards aren't coming you have to pick up chips somehow, and you illustrated some ways, IMO, very well. I have had some tremendous results with plays like this. I now avergage around 15-20 pots won without a showdown, unfortunately my pots won at showdown is not as high as I would like it to be... /images/graemlins/frown.gif
But then again maybe I am little to loose.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Salt,

Thank you for the kind words.

[ QUOTE ]
I now avergage around 15-20 pots won without a showdown, unfortunately my pots won at showdown is not as high as I would like it to be... /images/graemlins/frown.gif
But then again maybe I am little to loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, one of the dangers of playing this style is that you will be in a whole lot more close pots than you would with solid, tight, ABC poker. That means you have to get very tight post-flop.

You're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to make accurate reads in close situations. If you're going to err post-flop, it's better to err on the side of caution. Yes, take your stab at the pot if it's offered to you. But that is one stab, and then you screw it down so tight it squeaks unless your hand improves.

Here's an example from the WPT Foxwoods final table:

There are five players left. Phil Hellmuth is in the SB with J9o, and Hoyt Corkins is in the BB with J7o. It's folded to Phil, and he steal-raises. Hoyt thinks a monent, and calls.

The flop is 9-high, giving Phil the top pair. He bets, and Hoyt puts in a big raise. Phil calls, trying to draw Hoyt in. The turn is a 7. Phil checks, hoping to pull Hoyt into making another bet. Hoyt checks behind. The river is a 7, giving Hoyt a set of 7s. Phil bets, Hoyt puts in a big raise, and Phil thinks for a moment and calls it.

Phil is obviously upset, and says that he had Hoyt dead to running 7. Hoyt replies: "You weren't going to break me. I wasn't going to put another dime into that hand, after my bluff ... until the third 7 fell."

That quote was the reason I shared this hand. If you're going to play aggressive pre-flop, you have to be willing to tighten up post-flop, or you'll get mauled in too many long-odds showdowns.

Cris