Check-raising to add pot odds

[Steven Punk]

You hold J-10 off in the SB. 7 limp to see the flop. Flop is Qc-8s-3d. I check and next person bets all but 1 call 6 left in. I should raise here. My question is what to do if you change the 8 to a club and there is now a flush draw? I know my outs went down from 8 to 6 but now I can hit the straght on the turn and the flush draw has odds and can beat my straight on the river. Do I still raise with a flush draw out there?

[pudley4]

You only have a gutshot, not an open-ended straight draw. You only have 4 outs, not 8. You have 6 opponents, but are 10.5-1 against hitting on the turn. You should want to see the turn as cheaply as possible. Don't checkraise.

If the 8 was changed to a 9 (giving you the oesd), a checkraise here is a great play.

[GuyOnTilt]

You're thinking incorrectly here. How does check-raising the flop here increase your pot odds? It actually decreases them. You should definitely call though.

GoT

[Steven Punk]

[ QUOTE ]
You only have a gutshot, not an open-ended straight draw. You only have 4 outs, not 8. You have 6 opponents, but are 10.5-1 against hitting on the turn. You should want to see the turn as cheaply as possible. Don't checkraise.

If the 8 was changed to a 9 (giving you the oesd), a checkraise here is a great play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pudley thank you I did mean an open-ended straight draw so please change the 8 to a 9. As for my odds I am 3-1 to hit my straight by river and I am getting 6-1 on my bet. If the innitial bettor were right behind me I would simply call for fear of knocking people out. What is wrong with this thinking?

[Steven Punk]

I don't see how this thread can be confused with advertising a prop program. 2 peasants have PM'd me calling me Mary and telling me to stop ripping people off.

What on earth am I missing here?

[slavic]

Steven -

Your correct in that you would like as many people to call as possible for as many bets as possible. If 7 see the turn for 4 bets a shot that's good for you. Your job is to figure out how to get the most money/people to the next round.

[Steven Punk]

[ QUOTE ]
Steven -

Your correct in that you would like as many people to call as possible for as many bets as possible. If 7 see the turn for 4 bets a shot that's good for you. Your job is to figure out how to get the most money/people to the next round.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavic,

That is my thinking exactly. Guy on Tilt said my thinking was wrong. Perhaps because I miswrote a gut shot rather than open-end straight draw innitially?

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
What is wrong with this thinking?


[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing is wrong with this thinking, which is why I said:

[ QUOTE ]
If the 8 was changed to a 9 (giving you the oesd), a checkraise here is a great play.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Steven Punk]

Pudley you made perfect sense, look at Guy on Tilt's post. He is the one that believes my thinking is off.

[Steven Punk]

Ok let me get back to my question. My problem is playing and open-ended straight draw with a flush draw showing. Should I adjust if the flop isn't a rainbow?

[slavic]

GOT saw a gutshot, you revised it to an OESD. With a gutshot you have to call because the pot says you do but you make no money on future bets until you have a made hand. With an OESD and 2 players in you are making money with each additional flop bet. This is a big difference.

[pudley4]

If you know someone has the flush draw, your win rate drops from about 1 in 3 to about 1 in 6, so it's still profitable to checkraise in this situation.

[Homer]

True, but it could be more profitable to sacrifice that bit of EV, in return for the possibility of being able to check-raise the field on the turn.

-- Homer

[Steven Punk]

[ QUOTE ]
If you know someone has the flush draw, your win rate drops from about 1 in 3 to about 1 in 6, so it's still profitable to checkraise in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You also may lose slightly more on the river if the straight hits and you're not sure the 3 hearts now on the board made a flush. You lose from calling a river and not being able to jam a winner.

Still my original question on check-raising a open straight draw with a flush draw is murky at best. Would like to hear more opinions.