Big ol hole in my game

[risen]

Speaking in generalities here, When I bet out with TPTK(ish) and get raised by an unknown player I have 2 immediate thoughts.

1. Damnit I'm beat. and,
2. Stupid fish thinks he can raise me, I'll 3 bet the sumbitch for spite.

And more than 95% of the time we both get to the river unimproved and I muck to bottom set or 2 pair or a flopped straight with 58o and make a mental note

"If you know you're beat why don't you just lay it down fool?"

I guess it's because I take it personally when I don't win a pot I'm actively in, but is it safe to assume that Joe average poker player doesn't have it in him to raise or check raise without a hand better than TPTK? Should I start laying down solid hands to raises as a matter of course in the soft online mid limit games we populate? Or is the 3 bet/call down or check call down the only way to preserve your control of the table and your sanity?


Risen

Note: Thanks astro

[astroglide]

if you bet and somebody raises, that is a raise, not a reraise. a specific hand example could be useful here.

[sweetzer]

This question seems very relevant at this time. Bob Ciaffone's book basically states that if raised or checkraised on the turn, the aggressor has at least two pair, thus muck your TPTK. He then states that this holds unless the opponent is experienced and tricky. While this may work for PP 15-30 online, in my Mirage 20-40 game, it seems the new fad is to raise or check raise the turn with second pair, etc, as if in response to Ciaffone's thinking. Thus the answer lies definitely in terms of who is the opposition.

[glen]

"Bob Ciaffone's book basically states that if raised or checkraised on the turn, the aggressor has at least two pair, thus muck your TPTK."

That's why this book was heavily criticized. It preaches folding too much. . . .

"While this may work for PP 15-30 online. .. "

No, it won't. . .


"Thus the answer lies definitely in terms of who is the opposition."

Yes.

[DcifrThs]

Situation: you raise with ako preflop button cold calls blinds call. flop A85 two suit, you bet button raises all fold.

Games: party 15/30, reraise and lead out turn. if simply called you know you're good and can value bet possibly even in 3rd suit hit b/c he raise and knocked the other two out. if he raises turn after you lead out, THEN you can pretty securely fold here UNLESS you've seen him play but we are assuming you haven't. if he caps flop and then raises your turn and its a RANDOM party poker 15/30 play THEN you call him down b/c they raise with far less than top pair. this includes 5 outers on the turn. gut shots. and anything that fits any part of the board.

B&M not so good game. if capped on flop and UNKNOWN opposition id want to see it to the river JUST this once...assuming its you're first hand or relatively first hand in a session. now this unknown will be more known since you see his raiseing/capping requirments. while it is unlikely that you have the 'best hand' here given the cold call preflop and the cap i'd call down for two reasons that to me is worth 2 big bets in a not so good B&M game. 1) info about raiser. 2) prevent others from running over you after you show aggression and lay down a hand after 3 betting, which will save you many bets in the future if they know you cannot be shaken off top pair. so when they raise on the turn you can almost always safely fold, thus saving way more than those 2 big bets here.

GREAT game against total maniacs you will lose many more chips here but it'll be a capped flop probably 2 on the turn and at least one on river but you will end up good here against maniacs a lot so either bet out the turn again or call'em down.

loose passive player. you're DOA! no PASSIVE player does any more than 1 raise without a great hand. i've been CALLED on kt853 board when i had AA and the passive guy had kt...not one raise...on any street. therefore if raised even once (against the right opponent) you may want to fold. its SOOO unlikely you're good against this person its not worth it and they're not paying attention for future hands.

just some thoughts, hope they don't steer you in the wrong direction.
-Barron

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
"While this may work for PP 15-30 online. .. "

No, it won't. . .


[/ QUOTE ]
No, it won't! And if you do, you will lose to the fishes...