Can you lay down this KK in NL tourney?

[Epper]

Pokerstars, 477 Players, 20+2 NL w/ rebuys. Immediately rebought. Rebought at break. Avoiding trouble and being patient.

1. Built my stack to $11000, blinds are 100/200 w/ 25 ante. Somewhere around 200 players left. I get KK in middle position. Early position raiser takes it to 800. No real read on this guy. I take it to 2000, and SB takes it to 5900 (all in). He is a little loose and itches to play these big hands. I figured that I was better than him. EP raiser calls 3900. I think that I am ahead and call (MISTAKE?). FLOP: J8A. S--T! Know that I am in trouble. He checks, I check. Turn is x. He bets 800. Pot is 18000+ so I call figuring i cannot lay it down for 800 (MISTAKE?). River is x. He bets 1000. Again, pot is huge and I don't want to lay down for small bet. Call (MISTAKE?). Both guys have AQo. I want to puke. Down to $3055.

2. Stayed patient and rebuilt and am now at a little under 24K, blinds are 1/2K w/ 100 ante. 76 players left, top 45 get paid, I'm standing around 40th. I'm BB-- KK. Middle position takes it all in for 12K. Late position, big stack calls. He seems to be a pretty good player. I decide to call. Flop is x x x. I go all in (MISTAKE). Late calls. Flips over AA. PUKE time. Raiser had QTh.

Thoughts, comments, and suggestions are much appreciated. Thanx.

[Lori]

You are in the wrong forum, so the depth of replies is likely to be much lower. (Click tournaments and post again)

However I can't fold this here for the exact same reasons you give. It is likely he would play several hands this same way, personally I call those two small bets unless I have significantly more information about the player that I am up against.

Welcome to the forums,
Excuse my redirection, but the place is quite busy these days and posts go missing very fast if they are in the wrong place.

Lori

[Rushmore]

Hey. Welcome to the forums. Lori's right--this should be in the tourney forum.

Anyway...

Nothing you can do about either situation. In the first, he's pricing you in perfectly, and you're just not weak-tight enough to let go, as you shouldn't.

In the second, I mean, what are you gonna do? You push allin preflop, he's still got aces. You wait and see the rags, he's still got aces. You wait and see an ace on the flop, you can maybe get away from it, but the chances of this happening are, of course, diminished, seeing as he has half of the aces in his hand.

IMHO, you couldn't get away from either hand. However, I would like to ask one question: why just call preflop in the second example? Is it just to see if an ace comes? Is your thinking that you can get away from it if the ace falls?

I ask because this is exactly how I cracked out of the UB $100+rebuy tourney last night, with just 30 people left.

I have an average stack. I raise 4 times the BB utg with KK, MP triples this amount, which would put me about 60% in. Can I get away from this hand?

I have come to believe that this situation is force majure, and that I do not subscribe to the "Big Laydown Theory."

I just think God wants you out of the tournament.

OK. Maybe not God.

[Senor Choppy]

As others have said before, the tournament forum is a better place for this.

You made the decision to play both hands which is the right play. You don't mention your opponent's stack sizes, but if you move in in either of these hands they're pot committed and have to call. If they have anything but aces, they're going to have a lot tougher decision if the flop misses them than you are. I'd hate to leave 5k on the table in the first hand because the flop came K high and your opponent folded.

In the second hand you're out of position, your opponent has a big stack and you say he seems to be pretty good. I wouldn't want to worry about throwing away the winner when an ace fell, I'd rather get my chips in preflop and be done with it.

As far as how many people get paid and where you stand as far as chip position, you're not where you want to be yet, both hands offer you an opportunity to nearly triple up with the 2nd best hand in the game and get to a point where you can start pushing people around and not worry as much on survival.

[Jackal22]

Has anyone said that the tournament forum is the best place for this post? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Epper]

Thanx for the welcome -- spend a lot of time on United Poker Forum, which I like, but have heard that this is really good. Anyway, your hand poses a similar, but different problem than mine because you made the first bet UTG. If I was at your table, I would ssume that with your stack size, bet, and position, your holdings are AA, KK, QQ, AK, and maybe JJ or TT. The latter two are low so to raise the amount that he did, I am thinking that he has AK, AA, KK. If he is a loose player, maybe AQs or a bluff run. What kind of read did you have? Also, could you have reraised him and not lost your entire stack -- if so, his reraise or call, would make me very nervous and then fold.

Final thoughts: folding KK is a tough move, but the great players do it b/c you live to fight another day.