pocket pairs in late position

[umdpoker]

i am starting to rethink my play with low pp in late position. say hand goes like this, with suits not mattering because i am lazy:

i am on button, 3 call, co raises, i call with 66, blinds fold, 3 others call.
flop comes 5 4 9
check, check, check, bet by pf raiser. now what should i do?
12.5 sb in pot, clearly not enough to draw for my set. however, he could be bluffing with ak, aq. i might also get some more calls from the other people in hand. i used to fold a lot in this situation, but i think a call is in order here. the thing is that you might not get exactly the proper implied odds here, but the fact that he could have ak, aq here adds equity to the pot. if the turn comes with another blank, most ak, aq holders won't fire off another bluff here. therefore, you can either bet and try to take the pot down here, or check it through and go to a cheap showdown. obviously, if you hit a set, there is no cheap showdown coming. also, if he bets again on turn, you can fold safely knowing that he probably has you beat.

disclaimer: this is not an excuse to call til river with 66 when you know you are beat. this is also not an excuse to call 2 cold on flop with 10 bets in the pot. use common sense. this is meant to be used in close situations.

please give me opinions on this plan of attck, positive or negative.

[Ed Miller]

i used to fold a lot in this situation, but i think a call is in order here.

Raising is far superior to calling. Can you see why?

[umdpoker]

well if you think you are ahead, you will force the other people to call 2 bets cold, and pf raiser will tell you if he really has high pp or not by 3-betting. he might also give free card on turn if he fears trips or 2 pair(i.e., he has no hand reading skills).i guess i have trouble raising with such a crappy hand. do you think raising here is the best way to go, or is folding preferable?

[asdf1234]

Ed's right, raise it up, see what happens.

[NocturnalPimp{$N}]

Sorry if my comment makes no logical sense. I am still still trying to work my way up in the poker world.

With such a small hand wouldn;t you rather have people in the pot rather than eliminating them by making them call 2 bets cold?

[The Dude]

Raising is WAY better than just calling. In fact, I like calling so little that I would fold this flop before I raise it.

[Ed Miller]

There's a lot of money in the pot, and you want it to be yours. Your hand isn't exactly terrific. The quickest route to claiming the cheese is getting all your opponents to fold.

In general, the weaker and more vulnerable your hand, the more desperate you are to eliminate your opponents.

[Tosh]

You don't want to keep players in here. If you raise and all fold it would be great.

[uuDevil]

Ed,

Winning on the spot would be nice. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

But one probable result of raising is that you isolate the pf raiser and he reraises. Now you are getting 15:1 to call. Your 2 outs (ignoring the backdoor draw) added to even a small chance he is overplaying big cards (say 6%) makes a call good here and on the turn (where you will be getting 9:1 if he bets). If he bets on the river, do you make that call too?

Now you can't win unless he is bluffing and unless he is much more likely to do this than estimated above, a call is not warranted. Without some kind of read on the player, in low limit play, I would still call if no scary cards had fallen. But looking back up the road, I might be wishing I had folded.... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Did I miss a turn in the road or should I get over it if I want to make money in this spot? (I'm guessing "Yes, get over it.")

[AviD]

I think reason being...limiting the field increases your chances of winning the pot.

Even if you are behind to the initial raiser...but feel you are also behind to someone to act behind you...raising them out improves your chances of winning the pot...even if you are still behind to the initial raiser.

That's my take on these scenarios...and I recall reading something along those lines in TOP...although I may have misunderstood it...that is how I read it.

Also along the lines of...you are forcing others into making mistakes, either by folding a possibly winning hand and/or making an incorrect call (2 cold in this situation) to continue the hand when they don't have the odds.

[Hiding]

Alright I'm trying to learn here so I want to see if my thinking is right on why to raise rather than call. If you raise everyone else has to call two bets. Which will probably push some of them out of the hand. Plus, since you are last to act and have shown some strength if the turn shows a blank, everyone will probably check to you giving you a look at the river for the cost of the small bet earlier. Now, the question is, is that right?
Shaun