Openraising with JTs

[Trix]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)- I think I´m up about 20-25 BBs at this point, playing tight and shown nothing but winners, so I thought it was time for a little deception.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, UTG+110 folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO folds, BB folds.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Think about turn before you scroll down.






























River: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Jh Th (two pair, jacks and sixes).
MP2 shows Ad 5d (two pair, aces and sixes).
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: MP2 wins 9.25 BB. </font>

[bernie]

I like it. It just didnt happen to work out this time. Gotta give him balls to run a turn raise like that though.

It'd be great if he just caught his kicker.

b

[shemp]

JT is a particularly bad hand to do this with -- and the need for deception seems a bit of a stretch doncha think? Maybe: It's pretty, and open limping is for lamers is what you were thinking?

[Trix]

I dont think JTs is a bad hand for this, I actually think its one of the best as I can bet almost any flop with that if I only get one or two callers.
A,K,Q high and people will have to wonder if I flopped toppair, J-T high, Ill have toppair and they might put me on overcards. Lower flops I might get somekind of draw along with my overcards.

You noticed the table were 8-handed?, thats cuz two people just left. I won like 4 hands in one orbit, getting AQs,AA,JJ,99,JJ, they saw the winner each time, I dont want them to give me too much credit.

I dont mind openlimping at loose-passive tables where the first 3-4 players just happened to get offsuit 8 high hands and folded, even the fish can lay those down.

[jasonHoldEm]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think JTs is a bad hand for this, I actually think its one of the best as I can bet almost any flop with that if I only get one or two callers.
A,K,Q high and people will have to wonder if I flopped toppair, J-T high, Ill have toppair and they might put me on overcards. Lower flops I might get somekind of draw along with my overcards.


[/ QUOTE ]

First, eighthanded isn't going to make that much of a difference, if it was six handed, ok.

Opening for a raise with JTs in early MP is foolish, it lacks the high cards stregth to be successful. If you're in LP and no one has called, fine, pound it and hope to take down the blinds, in MP you're wasting your money.

Are you suggesting you would bet into coldcallers behind you if an A, K, or Q flops? What are you going to do on the turn when they call your flop bet? How bout the river? You're going to lose a lot of chips playing a drawing hand this aggressively. Slow down and wait for your opportunities, don't try to manufacture them.

(Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to give my honest opinion).

Peace,
jHE

[shemp]

Hey, I'm always happy to open raise, particularly when I'm running over a table. The problem with the specific hand is that it is in what Jim Brier euphemistically called the Playing Zone, but which is otherwise known as the Fish ColdCalling Zone, the overcards you think they fear are also fishy coldcalling hands, and since when do such fear overcards, I could go on, but to each his/her own.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Opening for a raise with JTs in early MP is foolish, it lacks the high cards stregth to be successful...in MP you're wasting your money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do these ideas come from? Open-raising with JTs in MP should be automatic. He's only three positions off the button.

This is basic HEPFAP strategy and healthy aggressive play.

[ QUOTE ]
What are you going to do on the turn when they call your flop bet? How bout the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to do what you should be doing on every street? You should be making good decisions.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, I'm always happy to open raise, particularly when I'm running over a table. The problem with the specific hand is that it is in what Jim Brier euphemistically called the Playing Zone, but which is otherwise known as the Fish ColdCalling Zone, the overcards you think they fear are also fishy coldcalling hands, and since when do such fear overcards, I could go on, but to each his/her own.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you open-raise with a hand like this - and even more so when you open-raise with a hand like 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif - you're not trying run over hands that might dominate you. What you're looking to do is:

- Flop something big and gain a bit of extra equity because it's not a hand that your opponents are likely to put you on.

- Gain some extra equity on future hands if you get to show your hand down.

- Steal the blinds or steal a pot *cheaply* on the flop.

- Get the fuggoutatha otherwise.

If you want to go four bets on the turn with J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif on a board that reads J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, that's really your perogative, but that doesn't mean that the open-raise is bad.

[Tosh]

If you don't flop anything and you can't pick up the pot cheaply you can fold. Are you saying you follow through all the way with every single raise you make ?

[scrub]

I like the way both of them played it. However, I hate this sentence:

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)- I think I´m up about 20-25 BBs at this point, playing tight and shown nothing but winners, so I thought it was time for a little deception.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are legitimate reasons to make this play. "Deception" against players who aren't even thinking about what cards you could possibly have in a given hand, and who are turning over very quickly, is not one of them. Or, it's at least not anywhere near the most important of them.

It's also probably not a great play for you if you're going to lose a lot "representing" overcards when you get coldcalled.

Nice hand--tough result. That happens more often when you start extracting more $$ out of your hands...

scrub

[WDC]

I am going to have to disagree. Open raising consistently with JTs is a losing play, but doing it everyonce in a while is not.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]

When you open-raise with a hand like this - and even more so when you open-raise with a hand like 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif - you're not trying run over hands that might dominate you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes 87s entirely different is domination concerns and the deception angles you enumerated. JT is a different hand. It's not as if opponents can't put a J or T in a pre-flop raiser's hands, or suitedness, so that leaves the straight, but how much extra action is it worth, when top set ultimately slows them down. 2-pair is probably the most deceptive hit. Then there's that whole thing about the depth of handreading at low limits.

The reason to do this is that JT has +share against this many opponents with, at this point, random hands, per Abdulian strategy -- when I do this, it depends a lot on how I think I'm perceived, the blinds etc...