20-40...Would You Ever Check This River?

[Jeffage]

20-40 at the Taj. I have J10o in the cutoff. 3 players limp, I limp and the button raises. The SB folds, BB calls. All others call. 6 players for 2 bets each. Flop comes 8-9-3, no suits. Check to me, I check (I don't want to bet and get raised, shutting others out). Surprisingly the button also checks. The turn is an offsuit queen to give me the straight. Check to me, I bet. The button calls. Now the BB checkraises. Folded back to me and I make it 120. The button seems confused (not an act) and coldcalls the 80. The BB just calls. The river is another 8 to pair the board. BB now checks. I have the button to act behind me and, with the BB not capping the turn...it's tough to put him on the straight. More likely a set. Of course he could have some other BS. But my question is...would u ever check in this spot? Or is this a clear situation where your hand is too good to check?

Thanks,
Jeff

[AJo Go All In]

i would fold preflop.
i would bet the flop.
turn is fine obviously (although i suspect you didn't make it 90)
i would bet the river and call a raise.

[glen]

"I have the button to act behind me and, with the BB not capping the turn...it's tough to put him on the straight. More likely a set."

The bb checked the flop and the turn into five players and you want to give him a set. You are nice. The button checked the flop and then just called your intial turn bet. All signs point to an easy river bet.

[Jeffage]

What does the BB have when he calls my turn 3-bet? Just a Queen? I kind of doubt it with the other guy calling. The guy may be a bit loose but I felt like he played a good hand strangely. If he would only checkraise the turn with two pair or a set, I'm in big trouble save for Q9. I just doubt he'd call a 3-bet with a queen only if he decided to check a queen twice which is also bizarre. And if he has the same str8, why not cap it? I'm not doubting you. In fact, I bet it...pretty much automatically. I'm just trying to analyze in hindsight if it's correct in this particular spot.

Jeff

[DcifrThs]

AJo Go all in NAILed it.

after reading your post i was wondering why it didn't stop after the 2nd sentance...3 limpers jto, fold! end of story...but there was more so i had to read on.

flop check is close...reasons to check: maximize pot odds on draw assuming button bets all call, also option to c-r buttons bet and gaggle of callers, or take a freebee to hit if he checks.

reasons to bet: disguise your hand if you make it. get button to HELP you eliminate other players so your j or t can win without the straight (its like raising KdQd on Td7h3d flop...although you can just call to maximize pot odds youd like to win if your k or q hits too and best way to do that is raise and limit field.)

that being said its a close call so check is good because it also allows you the option to checkraise if its bet and called around, which can be pretty valuable.

turn plays itself. sounds like bb had q9 or some junk he wanted to c-r the button with on the flop. or he could just have just the queen but then why call a 40 reraise back...who knows? q8 is definately possible along with 98 for same reason as above (wanted to c-r button on flop).

river pairs board, dangerous but i think still worth a bet and a call if popped back. you got a 'confused' button who'll likely call your bet, maybe not the raise but at least his dead $$ will be there.

so...fold preflop!! at least i would no question, and i know others would agree here.

no fold, ok. close call but good check on flop.

turn plays itself.

bet river and call one back.

-Barron

[Manzanita]

Jeff,

[ QUOTE ]
But my question is...would u ever check in this spot? Or is this a clear situation where your hand is too good to check?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the BB filled up on the river I would expect him to bet out (I know that he went for a check-raise on the turn but, in that situation, if no one else bet the PFR almost surely should). Given the button's action so far, it's highly unlikely that he's a threat. Hence, I think that you have a bet here.

-- Manzanita

[Manzanita]

Jeff,

My guess is that the BB has AQ. With this hand a check-raise on the turn isn't a bad play. Given the size of the pot I can see him calling your 3-bet with this hand. And if the BB is really loose-aggressive, he may even be playing KQ, QJ, or even QT.

-- Manzanita

[Franchise (TTT)]

Barring extenuating circumstances, I'm sure playing JTo in the CO against 4.5 opponents is +EV.

Flop and turn play are fine, I'd never check the river.

[TimTimSalabim]

I thought *I* was tight, but I'd have no problem playing JTo in LP with 3 limpers in front. When *would* you guys play JTo, if not in this situation?

[shemp]

I used to check some/bet some here. Sometimes I'd guess right, sometimes I'd guess wrong. Now I just bet and payoff and I'm happy with that.

[glen]

Here's how I see it. I will admit that a hole in my game is when I read hands I often ask myself, "Would I have possibly played (whatever range of hands I put my opponent) on that way?" and then if there is no way I would, I will eliminate that possibility. So, sometimes I compromise logic in favor of, well, a different kind of logic, which is very narrow (uh oh, I am starting to sound like Elysium). Usually, when I give people too much action as a result of this, they usually left a ton of money on the table earlier in the hand, and then I don't sweat it that much. If he has you beat, he misplayed his hand and got fancy somewhere, so reward him with an extra bet and feel good about the theoretical money you saved.

Jeff, I am taking you off JTo after three limpers. Please read hpfap and top 4 times fast, count to ten, and then forget all about JTo after 3 limpers. . .

[Ulysses]

Usually, when I give people too much action as a result of this, they usually left a ton of money on the table earlier in the hand, and then I don't sweat it that much.

Exactly.

[anduril]

1/2 of the replies to this post said fold preflop, the other 1/2 said it was ok to limp after 3 callers....for those who fold it, how many limpers do you need ahead of you at the CO before you limp? Do you have statistical reasons for not limping or do you just think its too weak a hand without a family pot in front of you? for those who limp, are 2 limpers ahead of you not enough?

[Vehn]

I think its fine to limp in with offsuit broadway trash vs many limpers from the cutoff or button if the remaining players to act are not super aggressive.

[Jeffage]

I honestly don't see what all this debate is about in terms of the preflop call. After 3 limpers, I feel like it's a no brainer. It seems pretty likely I'm gonna get a multiway pot for one bet...I don't have a read the button will raise. It's just one of those things. I think it's break even at worst and maybe slightly profitable overall. Providing you don't get out of line postflop and play the hand well taking into account all factors. I don't think a preflop debate on this hand is worthwhile. Most people who play midlimits on here know what the "book" says in these spots. The money at midlimits is made in postflop play in my humble opinion (obviously you will lose if u play trash or coldcall raises with hands who don't warrant it...but one bet after a few limpers with J10...come on here). I am really interested in flop, turn, river logic, but as always...I appreciate all thoughts.

Jeff

[anduril]

Jeff,

I was just curious since the preflop call was split so evenly with the replies.....I think a river bet is warranted for the simple fact that there are so many losers you will get called with in comparison to the few hands that are likely and will beat you. If you were outdrawn then [censored] happens but I think you miss bets by checking.

[Jeffage]

Didn't mean to imply I was replying to you only...replying about the preflop discussion in general /images/graemlins/wink.gif. I did in fact bet the river, just trying to make sure I wasn't going insane when I was rolling it around in my head on the ride back. Turned out to be a good weekend down there so I can't complain.

Jeff

[Mike Gallo]

I bet the river and put my opponent on AQ or KQ.

[bernie]

I'd bet the river and call a raise.

overall, i like how you played the hand. Even with the limp preflop.

b

[ACPlayer]

Hi Jeff

I would not play JTo if any of the limpers was a tight player. If all the limpers were loose players (more likely at the Taj 10-20 then the 20-40 except on sat nights), I may play it.

If played I would usually want to bet the river. BB could have a range of hands such as two pair (not counting the pair on board) that he may pay off and the guy behind may call with his AQ.

[Diplomat]

The call pre-flop is fine.

-Diplomat

[astroglide]

i would actually want LESS limpers to play JTo because it lowers my odds of being dominated

[elysium]

hi jeff
jeff you have the lead. you need to bet for value. you've got the nuts. bet man.

[elysium]

hi jeff
i'm tired. i just put together my mr. astronomy and i've been looking for twinklers. there are some crazies who swear that the twinklers are some kind of invasion. well, last night i saw a twinkler and thought we we're being invaded too. according to my mr. astronomy 4.5 planetarium kit however, the twinklers have been are all still in place and have been twinkling for eons.

you read these reports made by people posting who really believe that twinklers are something other than stars, and you start seeing the dang things too.

now, i need to buy an orb kit.

anyway, bet.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
The call pre-flop is fine.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

I trust your opinion here, Diplomat. i've read many of your posts and those included in the older archives and do believe you when you say this preflop call is ok. HPFAP also says in this late a position these calls are ok. but how much am i giving up by passing them? i honestly do not remember the last time i played jto. i think it was in a 2/4, 3/6, or 5/10 game on the button maybe...but qj is like my "cutoff" and i really don't play jto, t9o, 98o, 87o and the like...maybe i can add jto in position in the situation described but if i don't have control of a game i fear this hand will just get me introuble.

please advise on this aspect of play and if you think i'm really hurting myself by not playing these hands. as it stands right now i will continue to toss them but now i will play the hand out in my head as if i played it and see what i would have done in different situations that invariably arise with these trouble spots.

maybe i just doubt my game a bit in this spot and that could be a leak. well at least now i'll go review this aspect of the game and think about it so any help you can provide will be appreciated.

thanks
-Barron

[Diplomat]

Well, you really are not giving up too much by folding this hand -- you almost never are by playing a bit too tight pre-flop. But I disagreed with AJo because he seemed to suggest that the pre-flop call is always bad, which it's not.

-Diplomat

[AJo Go All In]

not to be nitpicky, but i don't think i suggested that at all. i simply suggested (stated) that i would fold preflop.

[Paluka]

I actually think this preflop call is pretty bad unless the limpers are extremely loose/bad players. You can easily be dominated here.
As for the idea that money is made post-flop at these limits: hard for this to be true with JTo if you often make your straight and have to check the river.
Jeffage from everything I've seen you just don't play tight enough. I still remember a Partypoker hand from a few months ago where I 3 bet preflop from the sb in a multiway hand and you cold called from the big blind with KQo. The flop came K high, you played your hand aggressively and I took a lot of bets off you. After the hand I was stunned that you made that sort of mistake. I think this happens when you play live poker instead of online. When you are playing 4 or 5 tables at once you aren't tempted to play JTo or KQo for a raise. You have better things to do- make money.

[Baltimore Ron]

Jeff,

I seriously doubt the likelihood of either opponent having a full house. Here's why:

If button had an overpair (and we're concerned specifically with QQ here) there is no way he checks behind on the flop. I'd also expect the button to bet out a set on this semi-dangerous flop.

The BB is only slightly less readable. It is *possible* that he flopped a set or 89 two-pair and missed a chance for a flop checkraise. However, with you representing the straight on the turn, I wouldn't expect him to run the risk of losing bets on the river when you check behind on a paired board.

Bet the river for value.

BR

PS: Good to see you last weekend. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jeffage]

I appreciate all the responses. On the river, I bet, the button folded and my opponent checkraised me again. I called and was shown 98o for a rivered boat. Talk about a weird way to play two pair. I appreciate thoughts on preflop...I'm starting to second guess what I thought was a no brainer call. I agree that checking the river would be scared poker. Thanks again.

Jeff

[mike l.]

"I called and was shown 98o for a rivered boat. Talk about a weird way to play two pair."

weird? his river checkraise is expert. the rest of it's a little trap-heavy for most here, but given game texture can be excellent as well. watch out for that guy in the future.

[Jeffage]

Not so much his river checkraise (that I liked), but going for a checkraise on the flop and then the turn after the flop checked(though maybe he was sure someone would bet). I thought that was a little unconventional.

Jeff