Information about affiliate leeches

[Elizabeth-Anne]

People should stay away from affiliate leeches. They get paid off of your back for doing nothing.

Anyway, if you insist on using an affiliate, I got news for you.

You should demand at least 85% of the rake rebate. There are many affiliates, and competition should drive up the rates.

And here's another reason. A few weeks ago, I raised this issue on this forum. And then I received numerous PM spams after I made the post. I also got PM spam from the "respected" posters like Crockpot. Some of them offered me <75% of rake rebate.

These guys are sooo phony. They act like they're doing you a huge favor by giving you 50% of rebate, but you could get alot more.

[Dingo Puppet]

RIGHT ON!!!

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
These guys are so phony.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're just trying to make an honost buck. How can you get mad at them for making offers that you don't like?

It's one thing if they lie, deceive, or spam, to get your money, but I don't see anything wrong with what you speak of.

[Dingo Puppet]

One reason for sites high rakes are to pay affiliates. That's enough reason to be anti affiliate.

[Elizabeth-Anne]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These guys are so phony.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're just trying to make an honost buck.


[/ QUOTE ]


No they don't. It's usually against the Terms and Conditions for Affiliates. That's why they're not supposed to advertise it publicly, and some sites are starting to crack down on it.

Affiliates don't earn anything because they don't do [censored]. They just sit on their asses and collect money that real players earn.

The afishiates drive up the rakes; the sites need to charge more to cover affiliate costs.

Crockpot thinks affiliates are helping to make softer games. That is a Crock of Bullchit. People who go thru affilate sites are predisposed to learn more about poker and they're not the usual recreational/gambler types.

Party Poker has the softest games because they do extensive television marketing that brings in fish. Other sites like True, Pokerroom, and Prima have afishiate programs and their games are alot tougher.

[Puffin]

Ok as much as affiliates do raise the rakes i really don't care. I get some of my rake back from an affiliate. If you can offer me a better legal way to get a portion of my rake back i will take it. This is money we are talking about. Cold hard cash I am recieving.

[Elizabeth-Anne]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok as much as affiliates do raise the rakes i really don't care. I get some of my rake back from an affiliate. If you can offer me a better legal way to get a portion of my rake back i will take it. This is money we are talking about. Cold hard cash I am recieving.

[/ QUOTE ]


Puffin, this shows you don't have much integrity and self-respect. You'll get close to $2 kickback. There's more to life than just making an extra $2/hour and lining the pockets of affiliate leeches. Your basically being a $2 whore.

[Losing all]

This gets covered here every day. What new information are you trying to bring to our attention?I post some stupid sh!t on this board, but I at least try to have a point.

think of something at least semi-worth posting next time. In the meantime breathe, relax, and chug a steaming hot cup of STFU!

[Dingo Puppet]

Party Poker affiliate program states that if an affiliate signs up 10 people per month, after three years they will be making about 150,000.

What a crock of ****. No one deserves to be raping the average players to this tune. It needs to be reformed immediately. That's why I like the idea of a monthly capped fee for sites. Eliminate the affiliates altogether and lower the rakes for all.

[Elizabeth-Anne]

[ QUOTE ]
This gets covered here every day. What new information are you trying to bring to our attention?


[/ QUOTE ]

I said if you insist on affilates demand at least 85%.

Next time read the entire post, dumbass.

I'll post whatever I damn please, and I don't need your damn permission.

[Dingo Puppet]

Hoppy is in love!!

[Losing all]

Clearly you will. And sorry I didn't know you were the authority on affiliate back room deal making. Can you get me a better mortage rate?

[BreakEvenPlayer]

Elizabeth-Anne, I hate you.

[thwang99]

"think of something at least semi-worth posting next time. In the meantime breathe, relax, and chug a steaming hot cup of STFU!"

Reminds me of this picture:

http://www.hosstyle.com/cupof.htm

/images/graemlins/smile.gif - Tony

[krazyace5]

You are ridiculous in blaming the affiliate for the high rakes. It is ultimately the poker sites fault for offering these deals in the first place. And if an affiliate does not get it, it just lines the poker sites pockets instead. Also getting a rake rebate is not being a whore. Why would you not want to get part of your rake back? And thanks for the informative post, ask for 85%, don't know what I would do without you.

Also the poker sites could end these programs at any time, let the affiliates keep the rake for their previous referrals, but not let them have any future referrals. The poker site would keep all the rake and in the future, which I doubt would happen, lower the rake.

Why don't you use your energy for something productive and go after the sites and quit wasting everyones time going after the affiliates that have nothing to do with the rakes.

Now I just gave you the real answer to the problem, as I said if you want to do something productive send all the major poker sites an email expressing your views and try to get it changed.

When you post in the future please refrain from posting complaints unless you are going to post some solutions also. Have a nice day. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
There's more to life than just making an extra $2/hour and lining the pockets of affiliate leeches. Your basically being a $2 whore

[/ QUOTE ]

is it ok to be an $11.00 an hour whore ?

your right about affiliates ripping people off - affiliates soliciting players with a 50% rebate only survive because of the lack of decent information on how affiliates work and who offers a decent deal - if more detailed information about rake rebate deals was available to people say perusing these boards then an affiliate such as eugeneel who i understand normally only offered a 50/50 split would of been forced to provide a decent rebate or perish

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[1800GAMBLER]

Firstly, i hate you.

Secondly, i personally had to ask crockpot to be my affil after when i posted in the forum asking for one; he didn't PM me. He's also only taking 5% of my total rake which is the best offer i could find. More so, he can be trusted.

Lastly, i wouldn't care if most of the long term poster here wanted a large percentage of my rake since all the work they put into this forum has made me a winning player and i owe them a hell of a lot more than whatever they get from my rake. They are printing money for players who read this site, so i wouldn't care if they want to give me a smaller percentage on my rake compared to Mr. 5 Posts Kick Back Now Be Bust From Poker Later.

[KaBoom]

OMG!
Is some affiliate only taking 5%...Someone is making 50 on my rake and I'm quite sure he is still ripping me off. How do I find out what the monthly total rake is? I don't have poker tracker or don't request hand histories.

What if I became an affiliate and had my wife sign up through my bonus code. Does anyone know if this would work and is it legal? Or does Party poker forbid this?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
One reason for sites high rakes are to pay affiliates.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how anyone could possibly believe this. Poker sites are businesses, and will choose their rake amounts based on what they believe is most profitable for them. If they have extra revenue, they will not use it to justify lower rakes. This assumption is simply absurd.

[lorinda]

I don't understand how anyone could possibly believe this

Party, biggest site using affiliates, high rake
Stars, biggest site not using affiliats, low rake.

Lori

[Cubswin]

Lori

you know better then to inductive reason /images/graemlins/tongue.gif i dont believe party's higher rake has anything to do with affiliates.... it has eveything to do with greed.

regards
cubs

[fluff]

Now the funny thing about that: Even though Party has a much higher rake than Stars, who in their right mind would prefer Stars ring games compared to Party ring games?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how anyone could possibly believe this

Party, biggest site using affiliates, high rake
Stars, biggest site not using affiliats, low rake.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to break it to you, but Stars uses affiliates. In fact, I am one.

[lorinda]

you know better then to inductive reason

Sniff.

I actually do believe it's relevant, but clearly your reason is just as valid.

I would be curious to know what %age of Profit (rather than rake) Party actually gives out.

Lori

[ZeeJustin]

Sites like Party consider affiliate payments just another form of advertising. You guys don't complain when Party pays a lot of money for WPT commercials, but when they pay individuals to advertise, suddenly it becomes a problem.

[lorinda]

I hate to break it to you, but Stars uses affiliates. In fact, I am one

I always thought that Stars just ran a glorified Tell a Friend banner rather than full affiliate rebate deals.

Are we picking at words or is my information actually incorrect?

Lori

[ZeeJustin]

Your information is incorrect. I'm guessing people would get mad if I posted my affiliate info, but most 2+2ers love the people behind www.bonuswhores.com. (http://www.bonuswhores.com) (aren't you paid by them to analyze hands Lorinda?).

http://www.pokerstars.com/?source=www.bonuswhores.com

Needless to say, the /?source=www.bonuswhores.com part tells Stars who to pay. The big difference between Stars and Party affiliates are that Stars affiiates opperate primarily through banners.

[lorinda]

but when they pay individuals to advertise, suddenly it becomes a problem

The problem lies in a site giving away large percentages of it's profit to advertise.
If they paid you, or any other affilate a fixed rate based on the strength of your site, this would be fine.

The trouble with rakeback affiliate deals is that, almost by definition they have to put the rake up to compensate.

Why do you think Party has the highest rake, the worst promotions and the worst customer service?

I have nothing against people earning an honest living, even honest affiliates can be tolerated, but pretending that it doesn't have a bearing on the rake is rather worrying.

You are not getting 20% (Or whatever the figure is) of their profit, you are getting that percentage of their income, it is an important difference.

Whether you deserve it or not, in my opinion, depends on what service you offer your players, and I haven't yet completed, or even nearly completed, that section of my website that reviews affiliate sites so I won't comment.
What is important is that each person that signs up to an affiliate takes Party further down the road of bad promotions.

Lori

[lorinda]

aren't you paid by them to analyze hands Lorinda?

Yes, but they are not the only site I am now working for.

I apologise, I always thought clicking a Stars banner gave the affiliate a one-off payment, not an ongoing rake rebate.

Lori

[ZeeJustin]

I don't understand the argument that "the problem is where the money comes from". Even if they pay you a % of gross income, the money is still coming out of their net profits. They can't just pay employees, or affiliates based on net profits, and this is the next best thing. They obviously carefully consider each payment plan, and make sure that it offers the most advertising for the buck.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think Party has the highest rake, the worst promotions and the worst customer service?

[/ QUOTE ]

This really is a cheapshot. Again, Party is not the only site that offers affiliate programs. It is simply the most talked about here, because many 2+2ers love to play with the fish at Party, and these fish are brought to you by all forms of Party's advertisements, including affiliates. Like I said, Stars also has an affiliate program, and almost no fish, yet we only hear great things about that site. Am I the only one willing to criticize the people at Stars for not bringing in enough fish via advertisements?

Edit: Along with my first paragraph, it shouldn't make a difference if affiliates are paid a one time fee, or a % of rake. In many cases, the one time fee is more, and as a result, costs Party even more many that they "could" use to justify lower rake. Money for advertising is money for advertising no matter how the payment plan is decided.

[lorinda]

Am I the only one willing to criticize the people at Stars for not bringing in enough fish via advertisements?



You will be after their WPT (which you could win a seat in for free) airs in mid April.

Other people please note, that although I'm discussing this with ZJ in a fairly heated manner, I have no reason to believe he is anything other than fair, and no, he didn't PM me to say that.
I would rather discuss this with someone like ZJ who can make a sensible and logical case than someone who is clearly only after lining their own pockets.

Lori

[Silybum]

[ QUOTE ]
And here's another reason. A few weeks ago, I raised this issue on this forum. And then I received numerous PM spams after I made the post. I also got PM spam from the "respected" posters like Crockpot. Some of them offered me <75% of rake rebate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crockpot is not the only one I recieved 27 PM`s that I never asked for and some of the posters are outright liars. Some of the so called most respected only Pm`ed 1 time mistake and 1 was banned

[Cubswin]

Lori

I dont want to sound like like im sticking up for the affiliates.... but i do want to adress a couple of points.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think Party has the highest rake, the worst promotions and the worst customer service?


[/ QUOTE ]

Party has the worst customer support because they have had exponential growth unlike any other site and because they made a poor decisions to outsource to india.

Nowadays, party offers fewer bonuses because they dont have to. They already have a huge player base. But remember in the days when Party was still growing and had like 5000 players (ie last summer). Back then they where offering up bonuses left and right. Now they dont have to because they are happy with the size of their player base.

I also wouldnt say that Party's promotion are all that bad. Lucy Jones does occassionally rear her ugly head with a nice bonus (i do not want to know what 9 hours of 4 tabling is going to be like....ugh) and the occassional excite50 does show up in your mail box.

[ QUOTE ]
You are not getting 20% (Or whatever the figure is) of their profit, you are getting that percentage of their income, it is an important difference.


[/ QUOTE ]

If affiliates take 20% of revenue but generate 35% more traffic, dont you think that the sites bottom line is better off?

I dont think Party's recent rake increases have that much to do with affiliates.... i still contend that it is all about greed.

regards
cubs

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Other people please note, that although I'm discussing this with ZJ in a fairly heated manner, I have no reason to believe he is anything other than fair, and no, he didn't PM me to say that.
I would rather discuss this with someone like ZJ who can make a sensible and logical case than someone who is clearly only after lining their own pockets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll second this. Lorinda and I both respect each other, and Lorinda has given me help on several different issues / dillemas in the past. Respect certainly lead to logical / informative debates like this (IMO).

[lorinda]

If affiliates take 20% of revenue but generate 35% more traffic, dont you think that the sites bottom line is better off?


It depends.

That extra traffic has to be coped with in the form of new servers, extra support, more collusion detection etc etc.

The reason I make the distinction is that it is possible (and I simply don't know) that some of the extra traffic is a loss-leader building up to having the biggest site and higher rakes.

What should at least be considered, and again I don't know if the hypothesis is true or not, is that at some point in the future, Party may not be able to cope with the rake payouts, the upgrades and the service required and be forced to hike rake (which I WILL contend has already happened) to finance this.

At some point, the extra rake could reach a point where fish will notice (Higher rake certainly equals more bust fish which equals more conspiracy crap) and end up moving to other sites anyway.

Finally, a question I often ask my friends (and is possibly worthy of a thread on it's own), that you might wish to consider:
"Which online poker site makes the most profit"

Personally I don't think it is Party, but I'd love to hear other opinions as the question fascinates me.

Lori

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
"Which online poker site makes the most profit"

Personally I don't think it is Party, but I'd love to hear other opinions as the question fascinates me.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're talking profit / unit of time, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't Party. If you're talking profit / hand / player, I suppose I'd have no clue where to begin.

[CrackerZack]

After all the hugs are over, does this mean that Stars affiliates get a rake portion after all, or just a single signup fee. If this is super secret info, PM me.

Btw, my favorite part from this post are multiple people telling Lizzy that they hate her. Classic.

[lorinda]

If you're talking profit / unit of time, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't Party

This is what Im talking.
Profit per month, after expenses.

Just to make this clear, I wouldn't mind 0.1% of their monthly profit /images/graemlins/laugh.gif I just suspect others are doing better.

Lori

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
does this mean that Stars affiliates get a rake portion after all, or just a single signup fee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe their only payment plan is a one time payment per signup, although I could be wrong.

[Bubmack]

Stars Affiliates are paid a one time payment of $75..which is irrelevant from an economic perspective of what the rake will be...but anyway.

Bubs

[lorinda]

I believe their only payment plan is a one time payment per signup, although I could be wrong

Just to clarify my comment about picking on words earlier.

Although this is still indeed an affilaite thing, I consider it to be no more than a glorified tell a friend.

When Im talking affiliates, I really mean rakeback affiliates.

This is entirely my own gibberish, but it should at least make my arguments more coherent if you bear this in mind when reading my points.

A one-off payment seems the way forward to me, I do however consider it very odd that they don't run a refer a friend to backup the affiliate standing of other people.

Lori

[HavanaBanana]

The affiliates who have higher volume of money going through them also get higher %age back from the sites, thats something to think about when an affiliate gives you back 10% of the rake.

Here is what an affiliate told me he was getting:

[ QUOTE ]
Here is my share of the player's rakes from different sites.
Pokerroom 30%
Partypoker 25%
Empirepoker 25%
Truepoker 20%
Pacificpoker 25%
William hill 25%
Prima network site-Gamingclubpoker 25%


[/ QUOTE ]

And Stars having affiliates getting a one time finders fee is just wordsplitting, must we develop a new word like bonuspercentageaffiliate to not have to hear that argument?

Once again i do not blame the affiliates, but the sites for giving away the players money this way.

I can't wait for some site with good software to give rakeback directly to the players (i.e. lower rake)
This will make the sites with affiliates reconsider, they all have a clause that they can discontinue the affiliate practice at any time, so don't quit your day jobs folks.

ToT

[Inthacup]

While there are many points in this thread I'd like to touch on, the one I have the biggest problem with is the 'the site is charging higher rake because of affiliates' or put in another way 'the rake would be lower without affiliates'.


Both of these statements are erroneous. The sites only charge as much as they do because the games aren't very sustainable with a higher rake. The site is going to charge as much as they can, affiliates or not. Party didn't 'need' to increase the rake recently, they just did it because the majority of the players are too ignorant to know the difference or to act on it.


After looking at havanabanana's rake tables, I'd like to make a few notes in regards to this affiliate stuff:

The rake at Paradise and TGC are virtually the same. Yet, Paradise only offers a 'glorified RAF bonus' and TGC has the most lucrative affiliate deal I've seen.

TGC has their affiliate program outsourced to a different company, as does Empire and until a few days ago, UB. On top of affiliate payments that the affiliate actually receives, the site also has to pay fees to the outsourced site.

Taking this into account, one would say that this is why UB's rake is so high, but they only offer 10% of the player's rake while other sites offer 20-25%. Where does the other 15% go? Into UB's pocket. Why do they charge such a high rake? Because they can.

Empire offers 25% to affiliates while Party only offers 20%. Not only that, but Empire's rake distribution is done by an outside company, which is an additional expense for them. Why does Party only give 20%? Because they can.

How is it that Paradise and TGC have the same rake structure? Because affiliate payments do not seriously affect the profits at any of these sites. Why doesn't anyone get so pissed off that Stars' and Paradise's rake is so high when they don't have to make rake payments to affiliates?

People trash affiliates for being leaches but for all the grumbling, the term 'affiliate' has been created by the poker site, not by anyone else. If the site didn't want them, they wouldn't have them. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't have them.

The function of a rake sharing (between the site and the affiliate) plan is to attract long term players to the site. Affiliates are more motivated to market to long term players if they're going to get more from it. Long term players are a necessity for a site and revenue sharing is the best way to get affiliates to market to long term players. I see people show a lot of hate for affiliates, but they're just a part of a system that the site created.




But that's just my 2 cents.



Cup

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
1. The rake at Paradise and TGC are virtually the same. Yet, Paradise only offers a 'glorified RAF bonus' and TGC has the most lucrative affiliate deal I've seen.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can compare 2 sites and give examples like this, but if you take all Affiliate sites, and compare them with the non affiliate sites, you will see that affiliate sites have higher rake in avg, that is undisputable.

I agree that sites take the rake they can get away with, thats why it is important for the players to know the rake, and use their buying power and play where the rake is lower.

Right now it is pokerstars in Low-mid limit holdem , and planetpoker in low limit NL/PL.

ToT

[daryn]

high rakes? bullshite. try playing in a b&m. what's wrong with a site charging rake? i never understood this..

[daryn]

i'm pretty sure you're correct. they pay $75 per player signed up

[lorinda]

high rakes? bullshite. try playing in a b&m. what's wrong with a site charging rake? i never understood this..

Move to England!

The rake in Vegas scared me, the rake online is still much higher than we are used to.

I like my old 1 pound per hour without a dealer and 3 with for a 3/3 PLO game.

Lori

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
You can compare 2 sites and give examples like this, but if you take all Affiliate sites, and compare them with the non affiliate sites, you will see that affiliate sites have higher rake in avg, that is undisputable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because there is a correlation between 2 variables does not mean that one of those variables caused the other. (i knew my research methodology course would pay off at some point) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

regards
cubs

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're talking profit / unit of time, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't Party

This is what Im talking.
Profit per month, after expenses.

Just to make this clear, I wouldn't mind 0.1% of their monthly profit I just suspect others are doing better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious who you think is ahead of Party? I'm guessing you must think Stars. Who else?

Clearly, Party is dominant in gross revenue - the main variable is are they spending all of it in marketing? I'd say no, but it'd only be a guess. Interesting question either way.

[lorinda]

I'm guessing you must think Stars. Who else?

I think my list would be.

1. Stars
2. Paradise
3. Party.

Interesting question either way.

Thanks, it was intended as such with no motive to prove any points.

Lori

[William]

I will soon be announcing my new affiliate business.
No money back, but special treats.

At Party:
- A night of passion with Shania or Lucy (free choice) or Mike if you really insist /images/graemlins/grin.gif

At Pacific:
- Faster cashouts

At empire:
- Mail reply by a true american, we'll keep the indians fot the non-affiliates.

At True:
- We'll show you wich cards you lost to at in the preflop all-in situations in tournaments.

More great deals soon to come /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

William /images/graemlins/cool.gif
The new name in affiliate deals /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[BradleyT]

Joe plays a lot. He deposited $10,000 using an affiliate that offered him 80%.

He plays high enough stakes and often enough that he gets $800 a month as his percentage of rake rebate. This means he's contributing $3,000 per month to the rake. Party is paying out $1,000 of this so they end up with a $2,000 profit.

Do you think they mind paying this? Please find me an investment that costs me $1,000 a month but brings in $3,000 a month.

[Lori]

Party is paying out $1,000 of this so they end up with a $2,000 profit.

This is clearly untrue, even for a customer as good as Joe.

Firstly they lose $200 or so when he buys in, they also lose $80 a month in interest payments to Joe, then they have to cover his emails, the extra server size required to accommodate Joe and they also have to answer emails from Joe's affiliates. Let's call this all $20 a month to keep the numbers nice.

That's $300 from that 2000 that they aren't making, and Joe is rather a good customer and they have managed to give over half of it away.

Do you think Joe would not have played anyway?
Well that's impossible to say, but certainly there is a chance that he would have, so that's money given away for nothing.

Lori

[William]

Lori,

An impertinent question; why have you been posting as Lorinda in this thread and suddenly change into Lori?

Just curious, /images/graemlins/confused.gif
william

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
An impertinent question; why have you been posting as Lorinda in this thread and suddenly change into Lori?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering the same thing. I will say that Lori's avatar is FAR more attractive than Lorinda's. Does she have a phone number?

[William]

I will say that Lori's avatar is FAR more attractive than Lorinda's.

One does get this urge to peek under the dress /images/graemlins/grin.gif

However, as much as I want to believe in her being who she claims to be, I'm just not completely sure that I would like what I might find down there. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dingo Puppet]

Inthacup,
You compared Partys rake to a couple other sites and said it was virtually the same. Actually at 5.00 it's DOUBLE or 100% higher in rake. At 12.00 its 50% higher.

So get your facts right or at least look up the definition of significant.

Thanks and love,
Hoppy

[Dingo Puppet]

Fact is at 5.00 rakes are DOUBLE all other sites currently out there compared to party poker. At 12.00 they are 50% higher.

If this isn't significant what would be? If you play 1000 hands a day for instance, you would be paying out over ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS EXTRA IN RAKE per MONTH. It's a joke when these affiliates say its not significant. For me 12,000 dollars per year IS SIGNIFICANT.

Affiliates, quit your spamming and lying!!!!

Love,
Hoppy

[Lori]

Lori,

An impertinent question; why have you been posting as Lorinda in this thread and suddenly change into Lori?

Just curious,
william


I apologise.

Until I have decided what to do and settle on one character, this sort of pain in the rear is going to happen rather a lot.

Basically it depends which PM inbox I was checking most recently.

Lori

[William]

Affiliates, quit your spamming and lying!!!!

OUCH !!!!

The angry crowd 1 - Affiliates 0

[Dingo Puppet]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait for some site with good software to give rakeback directly to the players (i.e. lower rake)
This will make the sites with affiliates reconsider, they all have a clause that they can discontinue the affiliate practice at any time, so don't quit your day jobs folks.

ToT


[/ QUOTE ]

There is a site advertised here called CHOICE POKER that gives back 50% of your rake every two weeks. I clicked on the 2+2 banner here and found that out. It's a lot of rake kickback for me. So let's not assume sights can't offer such rake kickbacks. Choice already does.

[Dingo Puppet]

Jay,
You aren't getting anything back from your affiliate playing at party. The 100% higher rake at 5.00 and 50% higher rake at 12.00 is costing you much much more than what your kickback from the affiliate is for playing there. It's a sucker play. You aint gettin nuttin honey.

Love,
Hoppy

[HavanaBanana]

I have played there buddy boy.
They decided to up the rake in their 2-4 game, and they have 96 hours delay on cashouts and have skins made out of pornwebmasters, and software is not great neither is sound.
Alltogether these things makes me trust them a little less, plus they do not have full tables, all of this makes me be wary of them for now.

ToT

[Dingo Puppet]

Yes, they are new, but I've made six withdrawls from them and the money is in neteller exactly 96 hours later as they say. Not once have I had a problem. I agree, the sounds are annoying there. I have to turn the sound off and listen to music.

All in all, besides the low numbers of players, it's an upfront site. Hopefully the 50% rake kickback will draw in more players. I don't know. The management is very nice I noticed though. They welcome input. It's worth a try in my opinion. I figure any site that has a banner on 2+2 is legit. I don't think 2+2 would let them advertise here if they weren't. It would be bad for 2+2's reputation to advertise bad sights to it's members. Right? Besides, I've already cashed out 6 times my deposit in a short time, so already I'm risking nothing.

[sumdumguy]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem lies in a site giving away large percentages of it's profit to advertise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party's approach to marketing from multiple angles, including both advertising (media) and the employment of sales representatives (affiliates) is no different than that of many other successful ventures.

Ad campaign costs have an upside, that is they are 'fixed'; however, the downside is that they do not necessarily know how effective a campaign may be, or their return on expenditures. Sales representatives (affiliates) costs also have an upside, the cost of affiliate wages are linked directly to the revenue (and profits) generated by the affiliate; however, the downside is that it can be a near 'lifetime' cost per account.

Let's look at reality. Sales people that bring revenue to any business should be rewarded. The GE salesman that landed Home Depot receives a commission for the duration of his employment. The agent that sold me life insurance receives a commission for as long as I choose Sun Life as my insurance company. The representative that takes care of my company's hosting and email accounts receives a commission for as long as I choose his company to host my internet services.

The fact is, commissions paid for life of account are not new - it is a valid and effective model. I am even personally aware of an instance where a company fired a sales rep in order to "skimp" on commission payments, and was then heavily penalized by a judge.

[ QUOTE ]
If they paid you, or any other affilate a fixed rate based on the strength of your site, this would be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
They pay a fixed rate for media. They pay a percentage for sales people and/or sales agents, just like any other business that has been successful in developing its customer base.

[ QUOTE ]
The trouble with rakeback affiliate deals is that, almost by definition they have to put the rake up to compensate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Horsesh!t. Choice has a lower rake, and both a higher affiliate and higher direct rebate to players. Both Pacific, The Gaming Club, offer higher affiliate and direct player incentives than does Party, and neither of them have a higher rake than Party.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think Party has the highest rake, the worst promotions and the worst customer service?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it also has the most fish. Get something straight. You play at Party because of their effective marketing efforts that provides a profitable environment. No more. No less.

[ QUOTE ]
I have nothing against people earning an honest living, even honest affiliates can be tolerated, but pretending that it doesn't have a bearing on the rake is rather worrying.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are so slap ass backwards. How about stop twisting the truth and call it for what it is. You, the so called professional is the reason the rake is so high. It costs money, in advertising and sales commissions to stock the pond. Without you, the pond would not have to replenished as quickly. Fish move chips among themselves, and the house takes a cut. You, take chips out of the game. Party pays for the fish by advertising and sales commissions. You come in and take money from their customers that were having a great time without you leeches! Because of you, the marketing costs incurred by Party do not go as for in generating income. If you, the professional quit playing, Party would make more money per advertising and commission dollar. Then they would make just as much money without having to increase the rake.

You did not build the game. Party's advertising dollars, and Party's largest affiliate network in the poker industry built the game. You take from Party's profits by, in essence, being the 2nd. tax in the game.

[ QUOTE ]
You are not getting 20% (Or whatever the figure is) of their profit, you are getting that percentage of their income, it is an important difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

After all the costs incurred by Party, and all the efforts made by affiliates, Party and affiliates take a percentage of the fish's pot. You on the other hand, take the fish's entire pot. Besides, 20% is not a lot compared to Choice's 35%, Prima's 35%, Pacific's 35%, and Pokerplex's 30%. At 20% for affiliate fees, Party is paying probably near 1/3 of its profits to affiliates. I got news for you, a salesman that gets a 10% commission on a product is also getting paid about 1/3 of the company's profits.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether you deserve it or not, in my opinion, depends on what service you offer your players, and I haven't yet completed, or even nearly completed, that section of my website that reviews affiliate sites so I won't comment.

[/ QUOTE ]
At least I almost agree with this comment.

You and I play on Party because of the "action". Party's package (their product) is a combination of the client/software/hardware, financial security, and Action. That action costs money to bring to the pond. The action Party has is a result of their marketing efforts: advertising coupled with the largest affiliate network in the poker industry. You want fish? I got news for you: it cost money to stock the pond. You don't want to pay for the big fish: go fish in a smaller pond. Go play on Paradise. I hear they have a better rake structure. Good luck, I hope you catch a big one.

You want a rake break? Choice offers a 35% rake break. I hear Charter Memberships are still available! Hurry... go now before they run out. I hear they have some mighty big fish there. Go fish with yourselves and see how much better off you are with a 35% rake break in an empty pond. I wish you the best. Hurry now... please go, I see there's a seat waiting for you.

The company (Party) obviously believes that they are better off paying the commission to obtain a customer they never had, and probably would not have without the services of the salesperson (affiliate). For as long as you, the "professional" chooses to play there, you obviously believe you are better off having paid more for premium real estate, a well stocked pond. Consider it the cost of premium real estate, a shabby bachelor suite in downtown New York.

Party took the financial risks venturing into an untested media and market, the affiliates (forget wages, no performance equals no payment) did some of the leg work, and YOU are the ones that want a bigger share of the pie? What exactly did you do other than come fish in pond that was stocked entirely on other people's risks and efforts? Now, having described you ungrateful, me-me-me-and-only-me, loser, hypocrites for what you are... I'll just add that I agree with Lori, in so far as there does exist a class of "scumbag leeching" affiliates. But they would not exist without you, the greedy-loser-hypocrite-professionals. Yes, it takes two to create the leeching affiliate - loser professional combination.

They are the affiliates that sign up EXISTING players in return for a rake rebate. There is no reason why a site should have to pay an affiliate a commission for a player they already had ! There is also no reason why a site should pay an affiliate for a player they would have had anyways (evidenced by the number of posters "looking" for a "good" affiliate, as YOU players would have gone to the site with or without an affiliate. And many of YOU already played on the site, but now play under your wife's name that you have signed up under a "good" affiliate. All that effort to STEAL money from a poker site that took all the financial risks to provide you with a better than ever before, source of income. Come on. Admit it. You make more BB's per hour with Party's higher rake than you ever did playing at PokerStars or Ultimatebet, or Paradise. Well, Party paid for the advertising, they want a higher hourly rate too. Party's affiliates did the leg work to sign up some of those fish, they want a cut of the profits too. You did exactly jack-squat but come in and poach their hard earned business.

I do not believe the affiliate program is a bad thing. It has been an important part of Party's efforts to stock the pond. However, YOU the loser-professional and YOU the leech-affiliate do indeed represent an unfair burden to the poker site. It is you scumbag people in combination, that are unfairly driving up the cost of doing business.

Have you losers thought about what Party pays to advertise on Two Plus Two? Or how much money you are stealing from Two Plus Two? You know... the organizations that paid for the ads here and for this forum? Or how about someone that goes to visit Pokertracker and sees the Party ad, thinks about going to Party, comes by these forums, and because of your posts, seeks out one of you scumbag leeching affiliate types? I suppose ptrackpat doesn't really need the money anyways. I mean, at $55 a pop for pokertracker, he must be a multimilllionaire already and shouldn't need anymore sign ups for poker sites.

This message is for both of you. The greedy, hypocritical, dumbass professionals making more BB's per hour than ever before because of the higher rakes that have fueled both the costs of marketing and provides for the rewards of successful enterprise. What exactly is wrong with your now more nutritious share of the pie because of other people's risks and efforts? And the greedy, scumbag leeching affiliates that either steal other people's business or place an unfair cost upon their employer. And for the really dense professionals, you are among the worst hypocrites I have ever seen. You want an even bigger share of the pie from the company and affiliates that made all your extra profits possible without offering anything in return. Not even to the customers themselves, yet you want the affiliates to reduce their commissions and the company to give away more money - directly to you no less !

Get off your high horse and respectively shut up with the holier than thou bullsh!t about poor me pay too much in rake to make more money than ever before while having taken none of the risks to build the business.... oh poor me have to make extra money on Party when I could be relaxing on Pokerstars making much less... oh poor me.... someone stick gun to my head, make me play on Party, see affiliate, and Party make money to make me make more money per hour than ever before... oh poor me... did nothing but sit back and do what I would do anyways somewhere else for much less per hour... oh poor me.

[ QUOTE ]
What is important is that each person that signs up to an affiliate takes Party further down the road of bad promotions.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is important is that you realize you are making more money than you ever could before because of the marriage of Party's marketing expenses with their large affiliate network. People do work, people want to get paid. You think they get paid too much? You can always play elsewhere. As you won't go elsewhere, what they charge is obviously at least "fair" market price, and what they pay their employees and independent contractors is not really any of your business. But I do agree that they gotta get rid of the bottom feeding low life affiliates in the network !

[Dingo Puppet]

I didn't have time to read the novel you call a reply. But I bet you are an affiliate defending yourself.

Love,
Hoppy

[Inthacup]

You compared Partys rake to a couple other sites and said it was virtually the same.

Be so kind as to show me where I did this.


Cheers mate,
Cup

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are so slap ass backwards. How about stop twisting the truth and call it for what it is. You, the so called professional is the reason the rake is so high. It costs money, in advertising and sales commissions to stock the pond. Without you, the pond would not have to replenished as quickly. Fish move chips among themselves, and the house takes a cut. You, take chips out of the game. Party pays for the fish by advertising and sales commissions. You come in and take money from their customers that were having a great time without you leeches! Because of you, the marketing costs incurred by Party do not go as for in generating income. If you, the professional quit playing, Party would make more money per advertising and commission dollar. Then they would make just as much money without having to increase the rake

[/ QUOTE ]

great post - i dont disagree with this bit but its a bit unfair - i'm sure party is very happy to have some winners playing there games - if there were no winners it would destroy marketing opportunitys - more importantly the site makes money from bums on seats and most winners have sore bums

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Dingo Puppet]

Inthacup,
I apologize, you stated clearly that Partys rakes were the highest. You were comparing two non party sites rakes to eachother as being similar and I thought you were comparing them to Party. My big mistake.

Again, sorry

Love,
Hoppy

[sumdumguy]

Well... if you took the time to read the reply, you would discover that (a) I defended Party's business/marketing model because is very similar to successful real world marketing plans, (b) took my own shots at the scum-sucking-leech affiliates, and (c) took a few cheap shots at some of the players involved with scum-sucking-leech affiliates. How do you spell leech anyways? (leach? leech?)

[Lori]

Get off your high horse and respectively shut up with the holier than thou bullsh!t about poor me pay too much in rake to make more money than ever before while having taken none of the risks to build the business.... oh poor me have to make extra money on Party when I could be relaxing on Pokerstars making much less

Now YOU get something straight.

Party is not the site that I win the most money from, or that I play the most hours at.

I could happily carry on if they went under, I'd just have one less option.

Thanks,

Lori

[frizzfreeling]

Do you think that poker is the only area in online business that has affiliates? Of course not. Most major online businesses have affiliate programs. Its called ADVERTISING. It is a regular part of internet commerce. A large portion of poker sites new sign ups come from websites affiliated with that site. If they werent paying the affiliates for this, then it would go towards advertising in another fashion, so in the end you still wouldnt get a discount in your rake. Its business, pure and simple. You can whine all day about it, but it is not going to change. This whining about how people are making money for doing "nothing" as you say, is pointless. Is there some rule that says that I have to do so much work to rightfully earn a dollar I make? Not unless I work for Mcdonalds!
You continuously say that the rakes would be less if not for the affiliates. That is very narrow thinking. If the affiliates all dropped dead today, none of the poker sites would lower their rake. You also notice how all the major sites have aproximately the same rake, regardless of their affiliate structures? The rake is at the place it is because that is what the market will currently bear. Without the affiliates, the rake would be the same, except the sites would only be taking the rest for themselves. Why would they lower rakes and give you a break when they dont have to?
Ebay, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, they all have affiliate systems in place. Your refusal to acknowledge the fact that it is and always will be part of business practice, is your loss. You are fully capable of becoming an affiliate yourself, but you choose instead to be on some pointless crusade against those who have the brains to use the system in place. Other than talking to my friends about the poker site I am affiliated with, you are absolutely correct in the fact that I dont do any work for the money I am given, and frankly, that is perfectly to my liking. Get a grip! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Dingo Puppet]

Oh! After that synopsis, I will read your reply!

LOL,

Love,
Hoppy

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Ebay, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, they all have affiliate systems in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think it costs $20 for a copy of HEPFAP?? Those goddamn book affiliate nazis!

Seriously though, I didn't read all of your post, but I'm pretty sure I agree with everything you've said.

[Lori]

Or how much money you are stealing from Two Plus Two?

I take this as an insult.

If you, the professional quit playing, Party would make more money per advertising and commission dollar. Then they would make just as much money without having to increase the rake.


This is borderline retarded, if the current best players were removed, then the break even players would become the winners and the pool would become smaller.

Get something straight. You play at Party because of their effective marketing efforts that provides a profitable environment. No more. No less.


So why isn't it the site I play at the most?

I'll tell you why. The software sucks, the rake sucks, the support sucks and frankly I'd rather spend the majority of my time elsewhere.

Go play on Paradise

Best advice you have given, although that's not my number one site either.

And many of YOU already played on the site, but now play under your wife's name that you have signed up under a "good" affiliate. All that effort to STEAL money from a poker site that took all the financial risks to provide you with a better than ever before, source of income

Again, let me re-word because you appear not to understand.

I do not take affiliate deals, how hard is that for you to understand.
I do not give rebates, I do not get rebates. I do on occasion refer a friend, and I freely admit this fact.

And for the really dense professionals, you are among the worst hypocrites I have ever seen. You want an even bigger share of the pie from the company and affiliates that made all your extra profits possible without offering anything in return.

Okay, so I got $250 for the entry, but please note that Party are now using some of the ideas from my entry into the competition, and I believe are working on some others.

People like you with your negative attitude and lack of understanding about what people like me do for online poker are the true idiots of this forum.

Who do you think first had the idea for a tourney with more than 300 players on the net? Who's idea was it that made it possible much earlier than anyone thought?

Before you insult me again, learn your history, I've done more for online poker than you ever could or will, and don't you forget it.

Lori

[sumdumguy]

Please accept my apologies. The YOU was never meant to be you in particular but was directed to a particular class or goup of individuals. There was, someplace, somewhere, in the post where I refered the message I was delivering specifically to an undesirable class of affiliates, and to an ungrateful group of pro's on Party. Since you are not a Party pro, you are mistaken to believe the message was directed at you in any way. And since you are not involved in affiliate "scams" as I already knew anyways, you really should not be offended by the statements made. Again, I do recall somewhere in that post that directed the message to a particular group(s) rather than YOU in particular. In fact, I even went to the extent of agreeing with you regarding affiliates with "false" sign ups, but disagree with you on how/where/what and how much good/bad affiliates are for both the site and professionals.

You are however incorrect about fish not lasting longer when a pro is not in the game. The game may become beatable for a portion of the more skillfull fish, but the removal of the professional from the game to be replaced with a lesser skilled player will allow the other players to last longer against the rake and each other. And in any case, the newly coronated resident pro will not take nearly as much out of the game as YOU (again, not to mean you specifically) the pro (although I am not accusing you [specifically you this time, Lorinda] of being a fish). But if you are, I didn't say you aren't either. If you are still offended, I apologize pre-emptively.

[William]

Please accept my apologies

YOU (again, not to mean you specifically) the pro (although I am not accusing you [specifically you this time, Lorinda] of being a fish either).

Lori, see now what you have done. You have terrified the poor guy, and he is apologizing for everything, even the remote possibility of you not understanding what he means /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Disclaimer: Please accept my excusable and humble apologies, should I ever say something (god forbid) you don't find charming, witty and adorable /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Lori]

Please accept my apologies. The YOU was not meant to be you in particular but a particular class or goup of individuals.



Accepted. Also, just because I work to try to get online poker to be a better place, do not hesitate to correct me or disagree with me in the future.
I'll happily debate any of my views and if I am convinced I am wrong (Which is difficult, but possible) I'll happily change them too.

And in any case, the newly coronated resident pro will not take nearly as much out of the game as YOU

This is true to a degree I admit, although I don't think they lose slowly enough to make up for the missing players.
Johnny A.B.C Nomoves will take money off a fish almost as quickly as Mr. Fisheater given the lack of having to fight off Mr. Fisheater for Mr. Fish's money.

If you are removing the 20% of the top winners from a site, the other players have to be around for approx 20% longer for the same revenue AND you have the negative impact of a smaller site.

The most important number of all is the one that we are all arguing about: What percentage of players would have played anyway given the absence of affiliates.
I don't mean would they have played Party, just would they have played somewhere.

The key to these arguments is in that number, and by definition we have different views of what that number is, hence we argue.

Lori

[jasonHoldEm]

[ QUOTE ]
People trash affiliates for being leaches but for all the grumbling, the term 'affiliate' has been created by the poker site, not by anyone else. If the site didn't want them, they wouldn't have them. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't have them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny how it took half the thread before someone put the blantant truth in such an easy to understand package. Can we just cut and paste this from now on whenever one of these threads pops up?

Thanks cup,
jHE

[Elizabeth-Anne]

[ QUOTE ]
OMG!
Is some affiliate only taking 5%...Someone is making 50 on my rake and I'm quite sure he is still ripping me off. How do I find out what the monthly total rake is? I don't have poker tracker or don't request hand histories.



[/ QUOTE ]


Good thing you saw this post. Now you know your affiliate leech is milking you. Now in the future you know you can demand 85%-95%.

[Elizabeth-Anne]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you use your energy for something productive and go after the sites and quit wasting everyones time going after the affiliates that have nothing to do with the rakes.


[/ QUOTE ]

If wasting time is such a problem for you, then you wouldn't be spending your life here.


[ QUOTE ]

When you post in the future please refrain from posting complaints unless you are going to post some solutions also.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your request is denied. It's not my responsibility to make a solution, and I'll complain till you get tears in your eyes.

[Elizabeth-Anne]

Affiliates raising rakes is only a small part of the equation.

Affiliates make the games worse. The people who go thru affiliate sites are more knowledgeable are learn more about the game.

Party spends money on TV ads, and that's good. It brings in alot more gambler-types that make the games soft.

And not to mention, affiliates don't do chit and make money off the work that players do.

Some people are now informed that 50% rebate is a Bullchit deal, when they can get 85%-95%. And maybe it's been mentioned here before, but alot of people haven't seen it because many people don't sit on these forums for hours on end.

[William]

E-A, you are boring everybody to death.

Can't you entertain yourself some other way?

Did you run out of batteries?

Just shut up /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[StellarWind]

William,

[ QUOTE ]
At empire:
- Mail reply by a true american, we'll keep the indians fot the non-affiliates.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you only meant to be funny, but in my professional career (not poker) I've worked with many intelligent, well-educated, talented, professional, and all-around good people from India. This joke wasn't very nice. People from all over the world read this forum.

[thwang99]

[ QUOTE ]
And not to mention, affiliates don't do chit and make money off the work that players do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's so easy to make money without doing "chit", why doesn't everyone do it? Why don't you do it? It's not as easy as it seems, you provide a service for the site, the site benefits, and you benefit. You both come out ahead, that's capitalism.
- Tony

[Hung]

Everyone should start an affiliate.
So everyone will be happy. You just have to make a simple website, put some pokerstuff in it and the sites will start asking you if you want to put a banner on your site. I did it once and still have plenty affiliates running. Took me 5 minutes to put the banners. Without doing chit, I'm earning $200/month. Easy money.
First I tried to ask people to sign up at one of those sites. But nobody was interested. So I just stopped bugging people. Now I just keep the banner on my site and I make a little bit of extra money. It's not much, but all what I do is sit back see how the money gets transferred to my account.

I wiashed I could be my own affiliate in my own program. That would be cool. I'd make money playing. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif But life ain't that good.