party 15/30: can't stop raising

[astroglide]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds.

River: (15.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows 7d Qd (full house, queens full of sevens).
Hero shows 8c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: SB wins 21.50 BB. </font>

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows Ac 2h (straight, five high).
Hero shows Ts Td (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: SB wins 19 BB. </font>

hand 1 is more illustrative. clearly i'm only losing to very few specific hands on hand 2 so raising can't be that wrong. i think i'm giving up too much by overplaying hands here when i'm almost certain i'm beaten. maybe i'm just not remembering the times that they show me a lower set, a smaller flush, etc. in general, though, i sometimes think i'm giving too much action in hands like hand 1. i wish there were a way to quantify such things in pokertracker (e.g. how many times when it was 3+ bets on the river heads up did i take it down?) to keep me from second-guessing.

[Garland]

Hand #1.

Fold A8 suited preflop UTG unless the table is extremely passive and you know tons of people will limp in with practically any two cards.

Cap the turn. There are three very good reasons for this.
1) The obvious one is...you have the best of it. Make anyone pay to draw out on you.
2) There may be straight draws (dead now) who will pay you now, but not on the river.
3) SB will invaribly put you on the flush and check-raise you on the river. You will only put in 2 bets on a losing hand instead of 3. If you're arguing for a possible lost bet when you have a winner...you got it from capping the turn.

Hand #2

You overplayed your hand by at least one raise on the river. The turn may be fine as you will see a smaller set or two pair. But now come to think of it, what in the world would they cap on? Since you "obviously" could have a set since you raised preflop. If they have any two pair with a board like that by the turn, they made a horrible preflop call of your UTG raise. It only make sense that he/she has a straight, and the turn reraise may be out of line. Again, look at your opponent and see how often he/she folds the blinds. It give you an indication if they play those types of cards.

Garland

[astroglide]

hand 1 i stand by my utg limp. i DEFINITELY think it was better to go for the overcalls on the turn rather than force several people to go 2 more bets. i think the river raise is the debatable part, based mostly on "how it felt".

hand 2 people will play 2 pair just as hard on party 15/30. the more i look at this one, the more the river raise made sense to me. i don't think people are going to "obviously" put me on a set - i think most would put me on an overpair (probably qq because of the river raise, but still possibly aces).

[Garland]

Well, my argument is on the turn, most people won't raise unless they can beat an overpair. Since you will reraise "knowing" this, you would be hard pressed to go over the top again unless you could beat their good hands and then they go over the top yet again? But who knows? I don't play Party Poker $15/$30. I saw some of the misplayed hands earlier that you posted, and now I'm thinking of a change in career... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Garland

[Vehn]

#1 I like your play just fine on the turn and river. Personally I think playing ace rag sooted UTG in party 15 games is suicide but YMMV.

#2 I would just call on the river after he caps the turn I think.

[astroglide]

a8s/a9s is usually my cutoff, and it depends on how the table is acting overall.

[WyattErb]

i only have one question....do you often call with A8's UTG? i muck this hand UTG with lightning speed!!!!

[WyattErb]

what i forgot...there was a preflop raise on the first hand? what did u think the other guy holds? calling UTG with A8's is bad, calling a raise with this hand UTG is even worse!

[Joe Tall]

Hand#1

Party 15 is too aggressive for this limp in my limited experience. After that, all good.

Hand#2

I call the river after the SB goes nuts on the turn. The check raise and cap is going to be the real deal more often than not.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[DanZ]

In hand #1, you go for overcalls on the turn, so why not do it on the river also. You'd much rather get a crying overcall than make one yourself.

Also, against better players, there's no law that says they must call your raise, even though it's extremely likely in this spot.

Failing to raise the river can at most cost a tiny bet fragment, and calling may be more profiatable in any case.

However, if you have misread the situation, the river raise costs 2 big bets, and it's not worth riskign that for a bet fragment unless you have a good read.

Dan Z.

[astroglide]

folding to a single raise back to me after i've already limped would be stupid. as for all, i wouldn't say i "usually" limp w/a8s utg but i will do it.

[astroglide]

In hand #1, you go for overcalls on the turn, so why not do it on the river also. You'd much rather get a crying overcall than make one yourself.

the reason i did it was that there are a lot of straight/flush permutations out there or naked queens which hit trips on the river. furthermore, there was only 1 guy behind me instead of 2.