Feeney's essay "One way not to fold" and our games

[DcifrThs]

One of my favorite two plus two books is inside the poker mind.

in it, there is a 'play' (which seems pretty standard although flagged as advanced...and i do NOT consider myself an advanced player).

basically you're playing 20/40 and flop middle pair(eights) ten kicker with jack high no flush draws. now your lineup is some weak tight, loose passive, and another similar player followed by a LA(G) (i don't know what the G stands for in loose aggressive...it should be LA). as you can guess you check and then usually fold fora bet/raise or any bet from the passives or a raise or whatever but if checked to LAG and he bets you c-r and bet out the turn since the range of hands with which he'll bet if checked to mean you're likely ahead.

now thats all well and good. my quesiton is about the corollary to that topic. John THEN says that if the flop came KING high with no flush draws or whatever you should now think more about betting out: because its less likely someone has top pair and its not as easy to be called by overcards. in fact this recently happened to me and i did the same as i would do in the jack high example...i won the pot because my jack kicker played vs. LAG's 96s (j9 on king high flop no draws) but i played it the same.

did i give something up here or is it really worth betting into a weak tight, loose pasive, and another loose player followed by an aggressive player on that king high vs. jack high flop? john did say to "think about" betting out for the two reasons but how many ACTUALLY bet out here?

thanks.

-Barron

[elysium]

hi dc
it's really not worth betting out. what you might do though is go for a check-raise of the loose LP. what john may have been referring to is betting out with middle pair on the turn when a K lands when the flop gets checked around. i don't know. if what i am understanding here is that john suggested the middle pair has more value on a K high flop rather than a J high, well no. it would have more value on a J high flop. the only exception would be when the pre-flop is unraised. perhaps that is what john is referring to.

i have john's book, and i found it well worth the money. he does give insight from actual experience. the subject matter john takes on is fairly complicated issues that arise in real situations. you can really feel some of the anguish in trying to decide the best course of action as john reveals his details of the given hand.

i'm not crazy about the line up in the hand you mention in this post, and i don't recall this hand in john's book, but you like a loose in LP and weak tights in the middle or the loose onm your immediate left. and of course, most of all, you prefer AK or thereabouts in EP. the T9 is a no no.

[DanZ]

there are a couple important reasons to bet the eights with the king on board, which do not apply with the jack high flop:

One is that on raggedy, K - high flop, you should be making the occaiional stone cold bluff. This also means you should value bet vulnerable hands liberally to cover this up.

secondly, if you check, the pot may get checked around. This may or may not cost you the pot, but you will have little idea what to do if there is no bet on the flop. this is because decent players will check kings or better here a fair amount, esp with an aggressive player in last position. If you bet the flop, and are called by the early player(s), you can be nearly certain you are beat. This information only costs a small bet and may come with a coupon for 2-5 free outs. Rarely is betting for information very reliable, but it is reliable against many opponent in spots like this.

Dan Z.

[brick]

It wouldn't be a TLA if it were just 'LA'.

results in white: <font color="white">Three Letter Acronym</font>

[DcifrThs]

John presents the complex material and i love it! i was especially proud of myself when i read some of the passages the first time through and knew the end result or the ensuing action without reading the end...then he goes on and makes me realize there is even MORE reasons why the action i thought was right is correct.

that line up is right outta the book, so is the hand. the j9 i had in a 15/30 sb with a similar lineup and the LAG on the button and i c-r'd the k high flop with the 9 and no flush draws. i bet out the turn as well in that situation.

he advocates checking the j high flop more than the k high flop in part because its more likely someone has top pair in the unraised pot (like you said) whereas its more likely everyone missed the top pair on the k high flop in an unraised pot. also, an unraised pot is the only place you'd get to play t8 or j9 from the sb.

thanks for the reply!
-Barron