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DanTheCardMan
03-06-2004, 08:42 PM
I've been killing on the $10+$1 tables all day. I'd been killing at the $5+1 and figured I'd move up to see how I would do. So far today I've finished in the money 6/8, including 3 wins. I kid not. (same basic strategy of ultra-tight, catching a hand or two to double my stack, letting the idiots chop at each other until 5 are left, then start loosening up to the point of playing trash hands when I'm heads-up) Of course I gave $66 of it back when I tried a couple $30+$3 tables

The thing that amazes me is that people pay their hard earned money to play these and they're complete idiots. I've seen it all. Saw someone go out on their first hand, as if going all-in was the point to this. Seen tables where 7-8 were seeing the flop, some on every hand, and ohers where nobody will raise. (I'm at one now...knowing I wouldnt' face a raise I limped from UTG with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif, had 5 callers, hit top pair with a single club, bet out, and held on for a runner-runner flush. Tell me anyone here would have allowed that. LOL)

I know this doesn't come as a big shock to anyone but it just amazes me how much easy pickings there are in these tournaments.

jaydoggie
03-06-2004, 09:20 PM
what was the point of this post?

sammiK7os
03-06-2004, 09:55 PM
I'll say it... Well done, your obviously a brilliant player!

NotMitch
03-07-2004, 12:43 AM
Today at Party Im 8 out of 9 in the money with 6 wins a second and a third. This is mostly due to mostly to the fact that everyone here plays really good and they share. Thanks to everyone who posts here for making me better.

CrisBrown
03-07-2004, 12:52 AM
Hi Dan,

A syllogism:

Premise A:
[ QUOTE ]
The thing that amazes me is that people pay their hard earned money to play these and they're complete idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Premise B:
[ QUOTE ]
So far today I've finished in the money 6/8, including 3 wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Conclusion: 75% of the time, you're smarter than a complete idiot?

I don't mean to be unduly sarcastic -- okay, I do -- but I always wonder why people are so willing to discredit their competition? In discrediting the competition, you're also discrediting your own accomplishment ... see the syllogism above.

You had a really great day. Super! Congratulations! We all like those kinds of days, and they happen far, far too rarely. Be proud of your accomplishment, rather than pooh-poohing the competition and thus your own play.

Cris

AleoMagus
03-07-2004, 09:18 AM
I told myself I wasn't going to post all month but I am bored and this post is just begging fo me to respond.

First, I read your post and didn't think much of it either way. Then I read the responses and kind of wondered why you were getting a bit flamed for posting a success story. We all do it now and then. It shows a lack of experience, especially when you make a statement like 'I was winning at the $5, so I thought I'd give $10 a try...' but still, I don't think it is worth picking on too much.

Then I read the thread immediately below yours - a thread about a player struggling to do more than break even at the $10 dollar level. Suddenly when I looked at these two threads so close together I had to ask myself why anyone would make your post. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, and I assume you didn't read or consider that thread, but it seems tactless. This is especially true when that other thread is contributing in a meaningful way to this forum while yours is not.

So, I congratulate you, but I also have to caution you. You made the money in 75% of the tourneys that you played today and you won almost 40% of the time. That is good, but be realistic. Assuming you are a truly GREAT player you are still highly unlikely to make the money over 50% of the time in the long run and you are probably not going to take first more than 25% of the time. Let me stress again, this assumes that you are truly exceptional at the game of poker.

What this means, is that you have a day in store for you where you will make the money in 2/8 tourneys and neither of them will be wins. This will be a losing day. You will still be a winning player who makes the money 50% of the time and you will still have a good ROI, but that day is going to make your stats what they should be. And, on that day, you will still think the competition is stupid, but many of them will win with their style of play. That is why they play the way they do. It sometimes works, and when it does it will change your current attitude to one of disgust.

Interestingly though, you will still probably be a losing player at that point given the sample I have just mentioned. Why? Because after 16 tourneys you might not be making enough to compensate for the $66 you threw away at 30+3.

I guess all I am saying is this. Don't assume everyone is a moron just because you had a good day. If it always worked out that way there wouldn't be any morons left. In fact, sometimes the morons make the money 6/8 and win 3. I kid not. They are also famous for moving from $5 to $10 to $30 all in the same day.

Just some food for thought
Brad S

PrayingMantis
03-07-2004, 10:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I've been killing on the $10+$1 tables all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

All day? That sounds like way too big a sample to conclude anything from it about your poker talent. Try some more realistic, smaller samples: all noon, all hour, maybe all hand!! That might work better.

PrayingMantis

AceKQJT
03-07-2004, 11:01 AM
Well,
My life is nothing but poker right now, and I stay on these boards day in and day out. I find nearly all of the posts I read useful in some way or another. Some of them just help me feel better after I've taken a beating (however well deserved /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

I am shocked that so many people have chosen to respond to the original post in such a venomous manner. It really makes no difference to any of us whether Dan is a long-term winner or loser. Whether he is a shark or a fish. It doesn't matter that we may be the very *idiots* that he is referring to in his post. WHY?

Because as a contributor to these columns, he is part of our crowd. He's a 2+2er, and he's here for the same reason as all of us: To learn to play his game a little better. We ALL have had a great day at the tables, and it makes us feel great. It doesn't matter that we made an un-likely suck-out on the river to put us on top...only the fact that , for once, the poker gods have finally smiled on us (however briefly).

In conclusion, I would like to say "Way to Go, Dan!, Just remember how great this feels on those days when things really SUCK. /images/graemlins/grin.gif".

[ QUOTE ]
Then I read the thread immediately below yours - a thread about a player struggling to do more than break even at the $10 dollar level. Suddenly when I looked at these two threads so close together I had to ask myself why anyone would make your post. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, and I assume you didn't read or consider that thread, but it seems tactless. This is especially true when that other thread is contributing in a meaningful way to this forum while yours is not.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps this post is not meaningful to some, but I think it's nice to see a 2+2er having a great day.

<stepping down off of my soapbox>

--Casey

AleoMagus
03-07-2004, 11:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It really makes no difference to any of us whether Dan is a long-term winner or loser. Whether he is a shark or a fish

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it makes a big difference to one of us, namely Dan.

My post was not meant to be venomous. I was simply trying to point out that a single day can skew one's opinion of the kinds of results one expects to acheive. This can be very disheartening when the eventual downward swing comes and the same 'idiots' who made that win possible start demonstrating why they never bothered to learn to play poker right - because their strategy sometimes works!

Actually, what am I saying? That is not why I replied and I made that clear. I replied because there are players struggling to beat 10+1 and if anything seems venemous to me, it is a post stating that the losers on party are all idiots and morons. This seemed especially true to me when there was a thread right below this one to that effect.

While I think my reply could be valuable to Dan and others who think as he does, it is not directed at them.

It is directed at the players struggling to beat 10+1 who may not be doing much wrong and who do not need to hear about what idiots they are.

Regards,
Brad S

jaydoggie
03-07-2004, 11:52 AM
thanks for the defense brad. i know ive been running bad online. alot of "bad beats" and i thought maybe i was putting myself in positions to take those. "win a small pot lose a big one" kind of hands.

i know that my luck runs hot, and cold. the cold streaks always have me questioning my worth as a poker player. the hot streaks have me excited and on top of the world.

after my BR suffering online, i had someone stake me in a small home 30$ tournament last night. when i walked in, the guy had just built his own poker room, his own table. a bar. he even had a mini poker table mousepad at his computer so he could shuffle chips while playing online poker. i was sort of intimidated, thinking someone this in love with poker must really have a good understanding of the game.

that soon changed when i saw the blind structure.
5/10
10/25
25/50
50/100 so far so good.
100/150 wtf?
150/200 wtf?
200/300 wtf?
300/500

everyone started with T1000 and there were 6 players, blinds went up every 15minutes. yowza. i made it 3 handed, blinds were high stakes weer low and these were the most passive players i had ever played. eventually blinds were 200/300 (wtf?) and the guys house we were playing had 500 in chips. 200 committed to the SB. he looks down at his cards, and starts to muck. then he says no.. im gonna make a move here and raises me 200. i look down to K5o. i think this is a must call, no? 4 to 1 pot odds?

he turns A8o. he had been folding these cards 3 handed, and almost folded from SB with close to nothing left!!

long story short i doubled him up 3X (never for alot) and finally the other guy got chipped away. it was headsup me and the otehr guy and he became incredibly aggressive. with the blinds/stacks short it was hard to play back with 10 high. so on my 2nd SB i pushed allin without paying attention to my cards (i looked, but only so he didnt think i was pushing blind.) he looked down and says "you made the wrong time to do this. well i hope you chose the wrong time" calls and shows QQ. i flip 85o.
flop 865
turn 5
river blank
wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo suckouts work both ways!

next hand hes sb for 300 has 600 left. raises me 100. i call. 94o vs 83o.
flop 944. and thats all she wrote.

PrayingMantis
03-07-2004, 01:17 PM
I'm really happy when 2+2ers have great days, and then post about it. The post here did not make me feel happy.

[ QUOTE ]
The thing that amazes me is that people pay their hard earned money to play these and they're complete idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have enough words to tell you how wrong and irritating this attitude is, espcially if it comes from someone who wants to be a succesful poker player. The *only* way to improve in this tough game, is to pay very very good atttention to the different types of fish, different behaviours, different weaknesses. If you simply despise them, and call them all "idiots", like the original poster did (after playing, it seems, for one day), it doesn't look like you're (I mean he's) here to learn. You're here to do something else, I'm not sure what.

I hope I'm wrong.

PrayingMantis

AceKQJT
03-07-2004, 02:03 PM
I guess I got a little tweaked up over something pretty small. Maybe in my *tilt* mode, I didn't convey my actual thoughts. I agree that referring to the other players as morons or idiots is just bad taste. An attitude like that can get in the way of really learning poker.

I guess when I read the post, I read something different than everyone else. I kind of pictured this guy elated with his good fortune, which caused him to go a little overboard in his condemnation of the entire poker community /images/graemlins/grin.gif .

I just thought the guy was real excited over a great day at the tables, and probably should be given some lee-way in his taste-less refferal to the other players.

I picture myself saying: I raised 10xBB with AA, and got one caller. Flop came A-8-3 3 suited, and I pushed. The *idiot* called me with 3-4 of diamonds, and caught a flush runner-runner.


As tactless as that may sound, I am apt to say it. It's nothing personal to the guy who made that call and came out on top, but it does express my opinion of his action.

Sorry if I got a little high-headed. I can understand all of your view-points.

Regards,

--Casey

Bozeman
03-07-2004, 02:56 PM
"The thing that amazes me is that people pay their hard earned money to play these and they're complete idiots."

For much of the world, $11 does not count as HARD EARNED money, and for some it hardly counts as money. This is not much to pay for entertainment, especially when you consider the bad beats and hot runs they'll deliver will give them higher than -$11 EV.

Now why some of this persists at the $109 level, I have more trouble understanding,
Craig

jaydoggie
03-07-2004, 04:52 PM
probably for the same reason. the people you are playing just dont realize the value of a dollar. or 100 dollars. people like me have a hard time understanding how people can throw away thousands not even knowing what theyre doing. while i grind it out with my little hard earned bankroll at the low buyins.

oh well, it'd be hard to win if people didnt make mistakes. luckily theres fish that make several of them, and keep me afloat. just cause they dont play cards properly doesnt make them morons though, they probably just dont value their buyins.

now someone calling with 2 pair with 4 to a straight flush on the board, who considers himself a "rounder". that might be a moron /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bozeman
03-07-2004, 05:21 PM
This brings to mind an interesting story I have from a low limit live table. There was one young woman at the table who was having fun donating. Talkative, loose, friendly, and nice. At one point she said to me "I really like the color of your eyes." Because of my concentration on the game, I missed that this was likely a flirting attempt. How -EV is that?

Craig

sammiK7os
03-07-2004, 09:07 PM
Yesterday I decided to try my hand at omaha hi/low. I sat down firstly at a $30+3 pot limit omaha multi, got knocked out around 60th place out of 230 odd. Then I played in a $10+1 pl stt and got knocked out in 6th place.

I found out that I am really rubbish at Omaha, but this didnt matter to me, I could easily afford the buy ins and it was something different and because i didnt expect to win it was some of the most fun I've had playing poker for a while.

I have never really understood this attitude towards poker before. My friends are always asking me to play a home game with them but I have never said yes as I know they are begginers and they would have a happy-go-lucky attitude towards it whereas I'm afraid I would come accross as some crazy freek to them /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Anyway I usually play $10+1 nl holdem stt online and make a good profit now, but I dread to think of what I was like when I was learning, I remember my friend trying to teach me he was like "47os throw it away" and I was like "but it can make a straight!" Although after a long while, I knew that I was a poor player, I enjoyed the game and was constantly trying to improve (as I still am) so being bad didnt bother me so much. Yesterday I also knew I was playing terrible at the Omaha tables but I was enjoying myself so I didn't care.

Any way my point is, in regard to these fishes we love, yesterday I was conscious of what it was like to be one and I think they deserve more respect than:

[ QUOTE ]
The thing that amazes me is that people pay their hard earned money to play these and they're complete idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many reasons that people pay there hard earned money to play. I think we should respect the fact that they may not know what they are doing at the table but they probably do know what they are doing regards there own money managment. And they probably do realise that they are learning or simply playing for fun or to pass the time. I think that you should be grateful they play and not ever call them idiots (as you did twice) or laugh at them.

Also I am truly happy that you had a good day but I really hope that you take to heart what the previous posters have said about variance, expect to have some equally awful days and dont play where you cant afford to.

Good Luck.

AleoMagus
03-07-2004, 09:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
he even had a mini poker table mousepad at his computer so he could shuffle chips while playing online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

My girlfriend bought me clay poker chips for christmas last year and practicing chip shuffling/tricks has become a part of my online poker playing as well.

Mini poker table mousepad... hmmmm /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good job with the (crazy) tourney. Yes it's nice to see that the suckouts go both ways.

Regards,
Brad S

jaydoggie
03-08-2004, 01:33 AM
im definately another who plays with chips while playing online. ive almost mastered the chip twirl. still have to pick it up from under the desk frop time to time. jaydoggie you have 15 seconds to act. :0

the minitable was pretty nice, i think he made it himself. someone should market it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

CrisBrown
03-08-2004, 01:56 AM
Hi Ace,

I think I need to clarify my remarks, because I didn't mean to disaparage his accomplishment. Quite the contrary, what I meant was that by calling his opponents "complete idiots," he was disparaging his own work.

I respect my opponents. I may not always understand why they do the things they do, but I assume they have a reason for it. So after the hand, or after the tourney when I review my hand replays, I take a moment to ask myself: in what circumstances would I have made the same play? In some cases, what I discover is that he made a smart play that I didn't understand. In some cases, I see a trap that I might well have walked into myself. Regardless, I try to always assume that he had a reason for what he did.

I don't think I'm an expert. I've only been playing NLHE for a year, and I have a LOT to learn. So I don't look at my opponents and think "what an idiot." I think ... was *I* the idiot?

Cris

eastbay
03-08-2004, 03:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This brings to mind an interesting story I have from a low limit live table. There was one young woman at the table who was having fun donating. Talkative, loose, friendly, and nice. At one point she said to me "I really like the color of your eyes." Because of my concentration on the game, I missed that this was likely a flirting attempt. How -EV is that?

Craig

[/ QUOTE ]

In the poker game of life, flirting with the right person can be very, very +EV.

eastbay

Stoneii
03-08-2004, 09:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
missed that this was likely a flirting attempt

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, it must've been a bluff /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just kidding, but on your $100 SnG fish point. I guess it's all relative, sum1 enjoying playing poker but isn't that good can still be a fairly wealthy person. (Bad poker player doesn't equal bad businessman /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

One day I hope to get there and meet them all Bozeman /images/graemlins/cool.gif, "but not yet, not yet"

G'Luck

stoneii