Flopping bottom pair in loose games

[wacki]

page 165 of HEFAP by sklansky

in talking about LOOSE players
After the flop.....
"it is often correct strategy to call with bottom pair if there was a raise, but not if there was not a raise. Bad players will make this call no matter what the size of the pot."

??? What is this, and why would you ever call with a bottom pair in a loose multiway pot?

[arfsananto]

I think that what they are getting at is that if there was a raise, then those still in are likely to have higher cards; so (assuming no high cards on the flop), the flop may have helped you more than them. Conversely, no PF raise means no high card in hands, therefore a ragged flop is likely to helped someone else more than you. If that's not what they are saying, then I'm as lost as you. Help, anyone?

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Wacki,

It has to do with the odds the pot is offering to hit your set or two pair. The idea is that an unraised pot won't be large enough to chase, but a raised pot will be large enough to call for one small bet.

[arfsananto]

oh

[Dynasty]

The reason you would call a flop bet with bottom pair in a pot that was raised pre-flop is that you are usually getting the proper pot odds to draw to your presumed 5-out hand.

If I've got 6h5h and the flop comes Ks,Td,6c, I would feel very confident that a 6 or 5 on the turn will give me the best hand. With a 5-out hand, you need 8.4:1 pot odds to make the call. A raised pot should offer 8.4:1. An unraised pot probably won't.

[Styles]

Dynasty,

Question on this, having to do with having something like Ah6h in your example flop instead of 5h6h?

I'm not "very confident" that a 5 would give me the best hand, but, maybe I should.

Unraised I could easily be against K5 or KT and with Ah6h I would feel "very confident" that an A or 6 gives me the best hand vs a 5 coming on the turn with 5h6h.

OTOH if it was raised I could easily be against AA, KK, AK or ATs so I'm not so confident anymore about A6 being the winner if an Ace comes on the turn.

Is this why I should play the 65 more aggessively in this spot? is two pair with 65 going to be good more often than A6 in a raised pot, and A6 good more often in an unraised pot?

Especially since if I'm in a raised pot with 6h5h or Ah6h it was raised behind me probably out of the blinds and a raise from there points more to a better hand?

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this why I should play the 65 more aggessively in this spot? is two pair with 65 going to be good more often than A6 in a raised pot, and A6 good more often in an unraised pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it will be good more than A6. Its the same thoughts that are mentioned in HPFAP about calling with overcards when there is a bet and a call saying that you should be more likely to call with say KQ than AQ as more people play Ax and could make 2 pair with an ace hitting. Most people tend to blindly assume that if they're getting 7-1 their overcards are good and this is wrong and player dependent. Against an any 2 player, you can make this assumption, against and any ace player, its dangerous to.

As for playing more aggressively with 65 in this spot, I think you mean after you make 2 pair. You should be playing very aggressive after you make 2 pair. Top pair has a good number of outs against you as does someone with middle pair. You'd like them to fold although its very unlikely they will, you'd still like it.

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
As for playing more aggressively with 65 in this spot, I think you mean after you make 2 pair. You should be playing very aggressive after you make 2 pair. Top pair has a good number of outs against you as does someone with middle pair. You'd like them to fold although its very unlikely they will, you'd still like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's what I meant. If I make 2 pair on the turn, do I cap it with 56 where maybe with A6 if I'm 3bet I might slow down?

Wow, I must actually be learning something /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Trix]

I think the point of that part is that it sometimes is correct to limp with big offsuit cards because bad players will make more mistakes postflop then, by chases their 5 outers without correct odds.

[CrackerZack]

Hate to sound like a broken record, but again likely player dependent. Will this person 3-bet with a one-pair hand? TPTK or AA for example. The usual party nut job, the answer is yes, for the more passive players out there, not likely. Last weekend, I 3-bet the turn twice in live games with 2 pair, one time against AA, the other against AK on a ATxx board, neither time did the other person cap but live games tend to be more passive. on a board of KT65 like in this example, I'd be pretty confident my 65 was boss and would cap it on the turn. If bet into again on the river, I'd likely only call unless the player was very over aggressive, which isn't uncommon. You seem to have the right idea with the A6 type hand you mentioned, just put in the addendum that was 65 or 76, if you hit 2 pair, its less likely someone else did also. This is a nice advantage, the disadvantage is that if the middle card pairs on the river, you're hand just went to crap.

[Styles]

nm=no message