announcing hand during tournament on empire

[crockpot]

for anyone who is curious, the hand history number is 434354893 on empire and you can request it from there.

the hand in question occurred during the friday night freeroll. the player on the button raises, and types "AJ" into the chat box before the blinds have folded. after the blinds fold, he shows his AJ.

since every live cardroom i know prevents you from talking about your cards during a hand, i fired off an email to empire support about this. what do you think?

[Cubswin]

You can only discuss your hand when your heads up.... at least thats the rule i play by. I know that i have goofed before when i attempted to IM my buddy who was sweating me and posted my hand in the chat window /images/graemlins/crazy.gif I havnt looked at the hand history yet....might this be the case here?

regards
cubs

[morgant]

you can never openly discuss anything about your hand, heads up has nothing to do with it.

[crockpot]

i would think that was the case here. but why show the hand?

p.s. quit sitting at all the ub 2/4 tables and making them more difficult to beat.

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
i would think that was the case here. but why show the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

good point....i guess some people are just stupid. im not sure empire will do anything more then ask him to stop doing that.

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. quit sitting at all the ub 2/4 tables and making them more difficult to beat

[/ QUOTE ]

im done there now.... cleared the bonus in one sitting and did quite well /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[uuDevil]

I don't know what Empire's rules are or how strictly they are enforced, but FWIW here is the Tournament Directors Association rule posted at
http://www.thepokerforum.com/tdarules.htm

[ QUOTE ]
35. Players, whether in the hand or not, may not discuss the hands until the action is complete. Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or hand possibilities is not allowed. A penalty may be given for discussion of hands during the play.


[/ QUOTE ]
So even though discussion is not allowed, it won't necessarily be penalized.

[Cubswin]

Thanks for posting that info. The reason I was under the impression that you can discuss hands while heads up was because i was sure i have seen it done before. Werent there a couple of famous instances of players intentional flashing hole cards? Wasnt there once a player who allowed his opponet to choose which card he got a peak at....even before the opponet got to act. Isnt this the same thing as discussing your hand?

And what about this year at the WSOP when moneymaker and farha were heads up.... didnt farha discuss the hand when he said "your flush must have gotten there" after moneymaker made a big bluff at the pot. I personally think that if you are heads up you should be allowed to discuss your hand as long as you live by the rule that "players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times".

Id like to hear what others think about this. Havnt there been cases in the past where people discussed their hands when heads up? Im just a little unclear as to what you can or cant say while involved in a hand. Someone attempt to shed some light here.

thanks
cubs

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for posting that info. The reason I was under the impression that you can discuss hands while heads up was because i was sure i have seen it done before. Werent there a couple of famous instances of players intentional flashing hole cards? Wasnt there once a player who allowed his opponet to choose which card he got a peak at....even before the opponet got to act. Isnt this the same thing as discussing your hand?

And what about this year at the WSOP when moneymaker and farha were heads up.... didnt farha discuss the hand when he said "your flush must have gotten there" after moneymaker made a big bluff at the pot. I personally think that if you are heads up you should be allowed to discuss your hand as long as you live by the rule that "players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times".

Id like to hear what others think about this. Havnt there been cases in the past where people discussed their hands when heads up? Im just a little unclear as to what you can or cant say while involved in a hand. Someone attempt to shed some light here.

thanks
cubs

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Farha hand is similar to him asking Moneymaker if he has a flush, which I've always believed was perfectly acceptable. It would be different if Farha was the one saying "I have a flush, what should I do?", which as I understand isn't allowed. Maybe they're the same according to whatever set of rules govern WSOP play, but I've heard of warnings for one but never the other.

[morgant]

questioning and insinuating about someone elses hand is okay and is some players bread and butter for intimidation and hand reading. making a statement about your own hand is not under any circumstance, if the jack of hearts makes a str8 flush or something, and you say i have the j of hearts, that is not allowed, whether you have it or not. if i am playing you and you say, morg. looks like you are betting aces right now, perfectly acceptable. but i was in a tourney and another player(not in the hand) said, player x's minimum raise screams aces, that is not allowed and he was timed out. not sure if that makes sense or not, but those are the rules i as understand them and have encountered them.

[uuDevil]

cubswin,

The TDA rule on hand discussion doesn't really make sense to me. It is intended to prevent discussion but if there isn't necessarily going to be a penalty, so what?

There is also this rule:

[ QUOTE ]
31. Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can, on occasion, dictate that the technical interpretation of the rules be ignored in the interest of fairness. The floor person’s decision is final.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, but it seems to me this allows players to see what they can get away with. Tolerance and ideas about "fairness" will vary from one floorperson to another. You probably can't take judgement out of the equation, but a little more clarity would be nice.

[blackaces13]

I really don't understand why you cant talk about your hand. The only thing you shouldn't be able to do is talk about other people's hands or make statements about their styles, ie raising standards and so forth. If I get dealt 72o and I want to announce that I have AA and go all in why shouldn't I be able to?

[aces961]

The exact situation that this occured was the following. 12 people remaining in a tourney that payed 10. A guy who had to pay a big blind of around 3/4 of his stack pauses and thinks when its raised to him. The raiser then states that his hand is aj. The guy folds and the aj is shown. There were also a stack with under 1 big blind left at the other table as well as a second at this table.

[morgant]

that is collusion(maybe the wrong word), i hope you don't think that is okay. the raiser is saying, here is my hand, if you think yours is better call, and your tournament hopes are still alive...etc... that is complete and total b.s.

[blackaces13]

Not to be rude but this does not answer my question at all. As I see it talking about your hand is just playing head games with people and there's nothing wrong with that. I play a NL home game every week and I claim to have all sorts of hands all the time preflop, I usually dont have it but sometimes I do, who cares though?

[TheGrifter]

The reason is to avoid collusion/accusations of collusion. It might appear to some that you are cheating in certain instances so it is against the rules.

[Cohiba Al]

This is why I figure announcing your hand during play is inappropriate:

Player 1 in BB with 2000TC
Player 2 in UTG+2 with 1000TC
Player 3 on the button with 32,000TC
11 players left, money paid to top 10

Player 1 posts 1000TC big blind, half of his chips. All players fold to Player 3 on the button who raises to 2000TC. Player 1 goes into the think tank, figuring to call and lose means washing out of tourney one spot from money. Player 3 says "AJ of hearts", giving Player 1 enough information to make the right choice of folding. Player 2 then becomes the person who, once posting all-in on his big blind later, washes out one spot from the money.

By announcing his hand, Player 3 has altered the results of a third person's standing. This is inappropriate and why this behavior is not allowed.

[KC50]

Even heads up this is out of line and is (in most B&M or online card rooms) or should be subject to penalties.

Kind Regards,

KC