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View Full Version : Need a check up: a few hands to review


La Brujita
03-05-2004, 05:32 PM
Just wanted to see what you all think of some of these hands. I will post the hands and then post what I did later. These hands are not super exotic but in a way that is the reason I am posting them if that makes any sense.

Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?

Hand 2

Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?

Hand 3

7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?

cferejohn
03-05-2004, 05:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

Re-raise. Maybe all-in; maybe to just 1000 (but fully intending to call an all-in). I'd raise to 1000 if I thought there was a chance that UTG might read it as weakness and play back.

[ QUOTE ]
Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. Close. You're ahead of lower pairs that don't take away your straight outs, but you are way behind to overcards (and have a good chance to be way behind to a better jack). Do top three pay at party? If so, I think whether there are another couple short-stacks would have some bearing. I have to imagine that it is close. Does the SB have so many chips that a call and a loss won't hurt him? I'd be more willing to call in this place, since it seems likely he holds a powerful hand of "two cards".

[ QUOTE ]
7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push. You are still vunerable to overcards and now to a heart. The pot is big enough (~600) that taking it down right now would be fine.

I'm guessing you ran into a set. Tough luck, but I just don't think you can get away from this. If you check, and he goes all-in, aren't you going to call? If you check and a ace comes (or a heart, or a spade), then what are you going to do? I'd rather not have to deal with those decisions, so I'm pushing.

foobar
03-05-2004, 06:18 PM
Hey There....

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the first important thing to realize on this hand is that even though you're one the bubble and have second stack, your separation from short stacks isn't that great, so it's important to get maximum value for your kings here. For that reason I don't push preflop. So call or bet? For me it depends on my table image, and how the big stack plays when he's in a hand w/ somebody. Regardless though, I probably just call his bet preflop. On a non-threatening flop, I've got a lot of options. I'd check into him if he's likely to take another stab at a steal. Otherwise I'd probably either lead out for a pot sized bet or, or minbet looking for him to come over the top. The upshot of all these strategies is that I'm trying to get all my chips in the pot on any non-Ace board.

[ QUOTE ]

Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

What's SB's stack look like? If he has you considerable covered then I figure there's a decent chance he's on a steal and call. Otherwise, I'd think a bit, and probably still call. Likely you're coming in behind, but if you lay down you're down to T450 in the SB. Assuming you don't get a hand there, you've got 3 more hands to push your chips in before blinds get back and finish eating you. The more I thik about this one though, the more I think it depends on the stack sizes at the table, and wether top 4 or top 3 are getting paid. If there's a couple other short stacks left, then it gets easier for me to lay this one down.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3

7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?


[/ QUOTE ]

I probably pot it again. Hard to put button on a hand preflop as it's early and he could be calling your 3XBB bet of 90 w/ a wide variety of hands. After he calls your pot bet on the flop, I'm figuring him for the nut flush draw or AT. If he's on AT, you want money in the pot for value...if he's on the draw, you want to charge him to see it. Now what if he comes back over the top when you pot bet the turn? At that point I get a little nervous about 66 or TT for his flopped set, but I probably call anyhow unless I've got a pretty strong read on the guy.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

ThaSaltCracka
03-05-2004, 07:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?

[/ QUOTE ]
what kind of hands does he play? if he is loose agressive, a possible play would be to call, hope no ace falls and let him push for your. If he is agressive with good hands, I would be enlined to call, he could have aces. If he is just agressive period though, especially with a wide array of hands, I would probably push.

cferejohn
03-05-2004, 07:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
what kind of hands does he play? if he is loose agressive, a possible play would be to call, hope no ace falls and let him push for your. If he is agressive with good hands, I would be enlined to call, he could have aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I like a call on the argument that "he could have aces". Unless a third ace flops (or a third king of course), I don't see how you possibly get away from this without losing all your chips anyway. With KK, my primary goal is to get all the chips in preflop. Unless I was somewhere with very deep money (i.e. the first round of the WSOP or WPT championship, I would never even worry about the possibility of being up against AA (well, I might worry about it, but I wouldn't play any differently).

ThaSaltCracka
03-05-2004, 08:29 PM
well, I would call only if I think the player is LAG with a lot of hands. Also if you think he is likely to make another bet, maybe even push all in on the flop to make a play at it.
the other reason I said call only is because if he is tight aggresive, he doesn't really specify, the 300 bet could mean he has a high pocket pair.
But I agree with you that with KK's the best play a lot of the time is to get all yout chips in.
maybe some clarification on the type of player would help, especially listing some possible hands he might play in this situation

jedi
03-05-2004, 08:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?



[/ QUOTE ]

In the heat of the moment, I'd probably re-raise all-in. Having some time to think about it, I might re-raise to 1000 try to get him to play back at me (or fold, which is fine). Or, just flat call and attempt to either check-raise or min-bet re-raise all in on the flop if an Ace doesn't show up.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2

Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?



[/ QUOTE ]
Fold. I can't get him to lay down a hand since he's already committed his chips. I'd rather push in with this hand than call for all my chips with this hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3

7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately I don't have a good answer for this one. You don't want to lose all your chips on this one, but you must pay any flush or straight draws to see the last card. The pot is about 600 right now. You have 665 in chips. I say pushing in will only get you called if you're losing. A bet of 100 smells weak and can get you played back at. Bet 250 and be willing to call all in? I dunno. That's why I read these forums.

La Brujita
03-05-2004, 08:45 PM
Thanks for all your responses. I will post what I did tomorrow, but I think it is very interesting to read what you all have written. I appreciate it.

To give you further information (as requested:

1. Hand one the BS is loose aggressive, basically a maniac. My read is he will raise with any ace, and will most likely call any size reraise I make. If you play at Party you will know the type I am talking about.

2. Party pays out three spots.

3. Hand 2, I was the shortest stack by far. SB had about 1200 chips.

ThaSaltCracka
03-05-2004, 08:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1. Hand one the BS is loose aggressive, basically a maniac. My read is he will raise with any ace, and will most likely call any size reraise I make. If you play at Party you will know the type I am talking about.


[/ QUOTE ]
perfect, smooth call here, if no ace on flop, check to him watch him make move, go over the top all in.

TimTimSalabim
03-05-2004, 08:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
These hands are not super exotic but in a way that is the reason I am posting them if that makes any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes perfect sense. The critical hands are usually the ones that aren't that 'sexy' on the surface, and you've picked some good ones here. I went back and forth on each, here's my thoughts FWIW:

Hand 1: I think this one is opponent dependent (but isn't everything? /images/graemlins/cool.gif). You said he was very aggressive, but what type of aggressive? If he's aggressive but is also smart enough to give it up when it's obvious he's beat, I like calling and trapping. Then you should be able to suck more money out of him if an ace doesn't flop. On the other hand, if this is a loose-aggressive who is likely to call your all-in with a wide variety of hands, I like raising all-in.

Edit: Now that I've read your "additional information", I'm definitely raising all-in.

2. Another close one. How soon do blinds go to 100-200? If it's the next orbit, I'm calling. If it's a few orbits away, I might fold and wait for a better spot.

3. The toughest one of the lot. This is a good illustration of why being out of position sucks. I can see valid reasons for checking, betting small, and moving in. Is he trapping you with a set? I tend to think not, because of the two-flush on board, he would probably raise a set. On the other hand, do I want to risk my whole tourney on this read? Hmmm, I'm tempted to check and see what he does. Underbetting the pot is also an option. If he raises you, you can probably safely fold. But I wouldn't fault someone for moving in here either.

cferejohn
03-05-2004, 09:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The pot is about 600 right now. You have 665 in chips. I say pushing in will only get you called if you're losing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a couple losing hands (mostly involving a ten, but possibly something like 99 or 88) will call you here (also any pair that also has a four flush may well call). In any case, there are two possible four flushes out, and you want to make it a mistake for them to call and the only reasonable way to do that here is to push. If you think this opponent would interpret a bet of 150-200 as weakness and come over the top, that's fine too.

Vince Lepore
03-06-2004, 04:03 AM
Hand 1: Call. Choices are move in or call. Folding is out of the question. Moving in would be my first choice if the situation you describe wasn't so close to the money. If an Ace flops you might just have to check fold.

Hand 2: Fold. You still have enough chips to be first in even if you lose the sb.

Hand 3. Move in. Time to make a draw #4%# or get off of the pot.

PrayingMantis
03-06-2004, 09:22 AM
Few thoughts:

Hand 1. I don't really want to see a flop, especially if he can open-raise with any 2. I'd push, or raise big (only if I know he'll re-raise or fold). I don't think it's a good time for trapping or anything. I would simply play it strong.

Hand 2. As others said, it's a close one, and it depends on many elements. I don't think any of the two options is a mistake. tough spot.

Hand 3. it depents somewhat on my reading of the opponent, but generally I'll push here without hesitation. That's a good board for QQ, I don't see a reason to worry too much. If he got his trips... well, not much you can do, I think.

PrayingMantis

La Brujita
03-06-2004, 10:09 AM
Thanks all for your posts. The following were my thoughts. If anyone else wants to post thoughts I would love to read them. Sorry for the length of the post.

Hand 1

I pushed all in. UTG turned over A-9h and won with an ace on the flop. My thoughts:

1. With AA or KK I am trying to get my money in before the flop. When I have KK against aggressive players I don't worry about them holding AA. There is too wide of a range of hands they may hold and if they have rockets I tip my cap and move on.

2. I am not sure if it is a leak in my game but I basically never flat call heads up when I have KK and a decent chip stack. If I am short stacked and willing to take a risk I will do it. My thinking is basically I hate giving free cards and giving three free cards is a bit of a bonanza for someone holding a weak ace if you know what I mean.

3. I agree that I did not have enough separation to do anything else but play this hand strongly. I felt pretty certain after watching the dude play that he would call any reraise so I decided to push.

4. All that being said (and here comes the classic second guess), given that I really felt he had some sort of ace, likely with a kicker lower than my pp, giving free cards might not have been a big deal and a flat call might be a better play? Thing is, as mentioned above, it is just a play I never make in this situation. It is never good to say never in poker so...

Hand 2

I called and SB turned over red kings. I did not improve. My thoughts:

1. IMO this is an extremely close decision. I am not sure there is much difference in equity between a call and a fold.

2. Opponent could have had many hands so I am in a quandry. When I really don't know what to do I give myself the quick AK test. I ask myself how would this hand do against AK. I needed about 41% ev to make a correct call and ev is 40% against AK. Does this test make sense to anyone? The reason I do it is I could be facing a lower pair (good) a higher pair (terrible) overcards (ok) or a stronger jack (terrible). It is hard to weigh the choices quickly. I have an especially hard time figuring out chances a stronger jack is in play.

3. If I had to do it again I would fold. The reason is I have come back from this low of a chip total many times, I wasn't in dire straights. Also, if need be there are many situations where you can get your money in as likely only a small 'dog (against two overs) so maybe you just take your chances on getting a big hand.

4. Hands like JTs are overplayed by many (including me) heads up in raised pots. They are best in cheap multiway pots or can stand action if 4 or more are in the pot (from HEPFAP). Depending on the game I think about mucking first in from ep and don't cold call raises with JTs.

Hand 3

I pushed in because I didn't have enough chips to make a pot sized raise a good option. Opponent turned over KK with no flush draws (what the hell???) My thoughts:

1. I usually get knocked out of tourneys (i) overplaying tptk (ii) with an overpair getting beat (iii) getting outdrawn (iv) getting short stacked and losing in the natural course of the game or (v) losing when blinds become big and the game is a crapshoot. I have fixed (i) and am not worried about (iii)-(v) but trying to work on the overpair quandry. My feelings are with shallow money you have no choice to play strong pre flop with big pairs, you don't have much ability to outplay your opponent. When that is the case, strong post flop play is required (due to the large raised pot).

2. My opponent played this hand as bad as he could play it. I hate the flat call with KK (see hand 2). I hate the flat call on the flop with a flush draw out there.

3. I felt I had to push in on the turn because I had taken an undertaking (as per PLNLH) that if the flush card missed I would bet. My feeling is a small bet like 100-200 might have shown too much weakness. Also, I would not have folded to a reraise so I might as well bet.

4. I thought I was done as soon as I got the flat call. Sure he might have held a flush draw or A-T but likely he had improved more than me. I think QQ is a tough hand to play (especially out of position) but I had decided pre flop and on the flop to play it strong so I did.

5. In sum, in this hand I felt trapped to make the all in bet with QQ although I didn't feel great about it. Is there any way (other than playing QQ for set value-which I won't do) to avoid the leak (or it may not be a leak) in my game of being ousted when holding overpairs. I honestly think I do have a tendency to overplay overpairs.

Sorry for the long post and thanks all for your responses.

longhorn
03-06-2004, 04:48 PM
Hand 1. In the heat of battle, I have no doubt that I would have pushed here too, but given the fact that you felt you had a good read on this guy (and that your read turned out to be correct), I think calling is the right choice.

Since you say he was super aggresive, you have to think he'll bet anything on the flop if you check to him, and that you will be able to double-up on any non-ace flop. If the ace does come, I think it's pretty clear that you fold on the bubble.

So by checking and seeing the flop, you will still double up (most of the time) when the ace doesn't hit and you will be able to get away from the hand when it does.

2. I would fold here. I hate calling all in on a hand likely to be a coin-flip. Like someone else said, I would have no problem betting all-in with this hand because then you have the chance to pick up the blinds, but I don't want to lose calling, especially given the chance you are dominated.

Bozeman
03-06-2004, 05:01 PM
Allin

hard to believe you have absolutely no read, but call.

Allin