river decision

[DiamondDave]

Some players who are new to holdem are at the table, so the game is unusually good. The new players know the rules of the game but don't seem to know what constitutes a great hand as opposed to a good one or what information can be gleaned from the betting action.

MP in this hand is a solid player, BB is loose and tilting, SB is one of the newbies.

Folded to MP, who calls. Folded to SB, who calls. Tilting BB raises, all call.

Flop is T82 rainbow. SB checks, BB bets, MP raises, all call.

Turn is a 4. SB checks, BB checks, MP bets, all call.

River is a T. SB bets out, BB folds, MP raises, SB makes it three bets, MP makes it 4, SB makes it 5 (acting really confident, for what it's worth), MP makes it 6 (proclaiming "one last time"), SB makes it 7 (getting within a handful of bets of all-in), MP calls.

SB tables T3o for trips. MP shows 22 for deuces full and takes the pot. SB seems genuinely shocked that his hand is no good.

I wasn't involved in the hand, but I remember thinking that I would have been willing to make it, say, 10 or 12 bets against that particular opponent. (But that's just me, and I've been know to go a bit overboard.) I spoke with MP about the hand later, and he said he stopped raising because SB seemed so happy with his hand and there was really now way to narrow down his range of possible holdings.

So how far would you have pushed it with such a tiny canoe of a boat?

[onegymrat]

Hi Dave,

Most "newbies" I have played against rarely see the nuts that they hold, and will often reverse the play of whether it is best to raise or just call.

In your case, I agree with your thinking. Any normal player would have shown more strength with two pair on the turn, and his reaction on the river shows trips more than a boat. In a nutshell...I would have put three reraises minimum.

[DcifrThs]

interesting post. but first things first. i think you need to readjust your classification of MP. he is not "solid"

solid players don't call first in with 22. plain and simple. i guess it can be POSSIBLY acceptable given the newness of the folks in the blinds and that if he does hit his set the newbies will be so flummuxed they won't know what hit'em ... especially since newbies don't consider the set possibilities as much as they should (i remember my first run in with a set when i had top two...it took me for a bunch of money at $1/$2 at the time). either way, that first in call from MP with 22 is marginal at the very best.

onto the question: how far do you push a barely sea-worthy vessel? like i said before interesting post. i think opposition is key here. his reaction on the river was so beyond his reaction on the other streets that its quite likely the t helped his hand as a top pair. you would have heard much more from him earlier if he hit two pair as slowplaying certainly isn't in his mind yet (probably, but you do run into the newbie who only slowplays-weak when strong right?)

in any case i'd have to weigh, "going until his chips are gone" (which i think you said wasn't much further) and "not biting the hand that feeds you." with respect to the final call here i would only do it because of the latter concern.

if that newbie got lucky enough to hit two pair, and somehow good enough to conceal it from me and then got real excited on the river like that you can be sure he/she's gunna get a LOT a LOT and a LOT of money from me cause i ain't slowin down here for nada (unless the reason for slowing down was the concern about killing the game mentioned earlier).

against better opposition i'd have to say take it to maybe 5/6 bets but no more because like you said, your vessel is hardly the titanic.

questions? comments?
-Barron

[DiamondDave]

Barron -

In EV terms, I like the idea of taking him to the felt, too. Good read - he only acted like he had something better than a typical winning hand like top pair or something when the river card fell. Suggests one pair -> trips rather than two pair or set -> boat.

BTW, if MP erred, it was by not taking advantage of the opportunity to bet the 7th nizzutz for value on the river against someone with All-In Fever. In that game any pocket pair looked good in an unraised pot.

[beerbandit]

Wouldn't the betting be capped at four since the play wasn't heads up at the begining of the hand?

[DiamondDave]

bandit -

It was a live game and they were heads-up, so they were free to keep re-raising each other until one of them went all-in or decided to call.

[beerbandit]

sorry i meant that at the begining of the betting round there were still three players in the hand. So wouldn't the betting be capped at four. For unlimited raises wouldn't they have to be heads up at the start of that round.