Vince Van Patten - The bigot of whatever it is he does for a living

[MasterShakes]

Last season on the WPT, I ignored the announcers calling Phil Ivey the "Tiger Woods of the poker world". I'm not a very picky person when it comes to politically incorrect statements. I gave the announcers the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe it's a compliment and has nothing to do with the fact that Ivey is a young, light-skinned black man.

Tonight, Van Patten called Carlos Mortenson the "Antonio Banderas of the poker world." I can't see how this is intended as a compliment. It's merely association by race - pure bigotry. Add this to the fact that Van Patten called a QQ hand "West Hollywood," and you have the Travel Channel tolerating this bigotry.

As I said, I'm normally not picky about comments like this, but to me, it's a developing pattern that the Travel Channel should end.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
Van Patten called Carlos Mortenson the "Antonio Banderas of the poker world." I can't see how this is intended as a compliment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can. They are both.. how do you say? Ah yes.. very sexy.

[jayadd]

Phil ivey was considered the tiger woods of poker when he beat amarillo slim heads up at the WSOP a couple of years back Vince didnt come up with it. easy does it with the comments he is just trying to juice up the commentating which needed it tonight cause the production of tonights WPT was a yawner.

[georgejetson]

I also am willing to give people fair latitude when it comes to shaming them about something that may or may not be politically correct, but I agree the comments about Phil and Carlos are quite suspect.

I don't have the Travel Channel so have only caught a couple episodes of the WPT here and there, but I certainly raised an eyebrow at the Tiger Woods comparison when I heard it. I let a friend of mine who is rather conservative (not that there's anything wrong with that /images/graemlins/wink.gif) play devil's advocate and talk me down (so I too gave the announcers the benefit of the doubt), but I saw tonight's episode and I can't write off the Antonio/Carlos comment as coincidence.

However, I'm not so much convinced the guy's a racist as just daft. My reaction was more 'what a moron' than 'what a redneck.' I don't even know what he means by these comparisons. Neither of the poker players' careers seem to mirror those of either Tiger or Antonio, so what's left but the racial similarities? Hell, I agree that Carlos looks enough like Antonio Banderas to merit comparison, but only insofar as 'Hey, that Carlos Mortenson kinda looks like Antonio Banderas.' End of comparison. And maybe even Phil and Tiger a bit, but again, it's superficial only.

What I really suspect is he's making a very poor, convoluted attempt to demonstrate that poker is an equal opportunity pasttime (sp?). 'Hey, look, we allow brown people, just like other sports! Whee!' It may be a very misguided attempt to look hip. A stretch, maybe, but something about those comments smacks of the suburban teengers who misappropriate urban culture in failed attempts to manufacture some, uh, what do they call it, street cred?

I'm willing to write it off as ignorance right now (versus patent racism). Regardless, I think someone ought to pull him aside and give him a talk, because his comments are ultimately bad for poker. I think it's great poker is getting so much TV coverage, so I don't want someone ruining it by repeatedly making dunderheaded comments that may rub off on those of us who think differently.

George

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
My reaction was more 'what a moron' than 'what a redneck.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah white country folks ... whats the world gonna come to when its not alright to make fun of them anymore.

[theBruiser500]

I don't care about being politically correct and I don't care about Vince's comments.

danny

[MasterShakes]

Maybe politically incorrect isn't the right way to put it. Maybe bigoted is too harsh. But when he said what he said tonight, it seemed like he was saying, "Hey, this is the Spanish guy of poker." And the "west hollywood" comment also seemed inappropriate.

I guess what I'm getting at is that on top being a terrible commentator, Vince is putting the show in jeopardy of receiving bad press. I can't figure out why they keep him around. I keep thinking maybe people find him funny, but I just don't see how that's possible.

[MicroBob]

regarding the idea to pull him aside and straighten him out.
remember, this is not a LIVE telecast like a football game. this is produced....with some of the commentary taking place in the studio AFTER the event is completed.

because of this, it would be very easy to EDIT out some of the controversial comments (perhaps they already do).
the fact that they are not edited out (or they didn't try another take of them, or whatever) indicates that they are permitted/acknowledged/(even encouraged??) by the producers of the show.

this makes the comments even less excuseable when compared with a LIVE telecast where the slightest accidental utterance can get one into trouble.

for even more bizarre/improper comments, take a look at the Ladies of Poker episode which aired again earlier in the evening. i don't remember the specifics....but i raised my eye-brows several times at Vince's ignorance/bigotry/incompetence.



additionally, it is possible to add excitement to a sports-type broadcast without being offensive. not to mention that his offensiveness actually detracts from any drama or excitement.


i may sound ultra politically-correct about such things....but my degree is in broadcast journalism and i look at all news and sports broadcasts with an equally critical eye. i don't think it should be that hard for a nationally broadcast program to find qualified, competent talent.
then again, Billy Packer still does the college-hoops championship on CBS so i may be wrong.

[jayadd]

i totally disagree, i like vince much better than mike. Vince brings color to the commentating. Vince is a guy most of the viewers can relate to. I think Sexton is really becoming an issue on his comments about the players mistakes and so. Through the grape vine a few players from the first season where pretty pissed off at him for some comments on play.

[webiggy]

Actually, I think the show would be much more interesting if Shauna Hiatt and Jennifer Harmon hosted the show in see thru nighties. Then, instead of having the cash brought out by armed guards, they could get it on the table by way of a girl v girl pillow fight.., /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[daryn]

man you guys are wound so tight!

i hate how anyone who makes a comment about race is a racist... it used to be you had to be actually filled with hate to be a racist. if you guys ever heard the jokes that me and my friends throw around you would probably drop dead. but we cover all the races and nationalities, even the italians, and nobody has a problem with it. i hang around with guys from all over the world.. just lighten up everyone!!!!

by the way as someone had mentioned that "tiger woods of poker" thing definitely was conceived long before vince ever had dreams of the wpt.

[Ragnar]

I don't have a big problem with the nicknames--but he repeats them so often in each telecast that it gets extremely boring. We heard references to racehorses with the one guy so many times that I got tired of it. The Antonio Banderas reference is OK once or twice a telecast for instance when he makes a swashbuckling play--but I get tired of it 8-10 times a show.

Ragnar

[Ulysses]

First off, as you admit, comparing someone to Tiger Woods can mean that they or black or it can mean that they are the best. Those who automatically assume the former are probably more bigoted than anyone making a comment.

Secondly, I don't think there's anything racist or bigoted in drawing comparisons between people of the same race. Tiger is a young black guy dominating a field mainly consisting of white males. Phil is a young black guy performing at the highest levels in a field mainly consisting of white males. There are real parallels and drawing attention to that is not racist.

I think it's important to draw distinctions between valid references to race or racial differences and racism. When Vince starts commenting about how especially impressive Phil Ivey's performance at poker is because those blacks just aren't very good with numbers, that's when you can start calling him bigoted.

As for the Carlos/Antonio comparison? THEY'RE BOTH SPANIARDS!!!! Seriously, what is bigoted about drawing a comparison between a prominent Spaniard in Hollywood and a prominent Spaniard in poker?

[Slingshot]

Cant argue with that. If they were hosting a "go fish" tournament i'd watch that too /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[leon]

or at least one of them today is people like you. Hypersensitive, just looking for a cause to jump on to. It's really sad. Leave it up to Phil Ivey or Carlos Mortensen to be offended at VVP's comments. It's not your job to do so.
Some people seem to have a moral imperative to tell others how to live. If there's no harm done here as in these cases it just looks ridiculous. This is why we live in a country full of litigation, where McDonald's has to remind people that their coffee is hot and that people can't be people, in fear of offending some hypersensitive nut and ending up named in a lawsuit.

Leon

[eLROY]

For whatever stupid reason, idiots will pay zillions of dollars to see Tiger Woods and Antonio Banderas. Poker players aren't exactly pro wrestlers, and you can't hope to make an interesting drama by referring to a bunch of dull characters - who look they should be on the international space station - as "nerd #7 with the dark hair."

If you can instantly shoehorn these people into a "cool" spot in the mind of the audience, by hijacking whatever image you can find of someone high-dollar that will even remotely work, it seems reasonable to try to coopt that image. Sure, Phil Ivey being Tiger Woods is a stretch. But it's well worth the effort, given that point A is a nobody, and point B is a gazillionaire.

leRoy

[Schmed]

Antonio is a good looking spanish guy and he's basically saying the same thing about Carlos. Tiger is the best and him and Phil Ivey do look somewhat a like.

Van Patton is a little over the top but I'd rather have him than that screamer on late night Jesse May

[Rushmore]

[theBruiser500]

I agree with Daryn and Ulysses. To be honest, you people complaining about Vince read like a parody.

[Rushmore]

But Mike Sexton knows what he's talking about. I realize people don't find this particularly entertaining, but, uh, so what?

When Jean VandeVelde gave away the British open ten years ago, should nobody have mentioned it? Or maybe they should have had VVP there saying "Well, let's face it--how can you NOT go for the green when you have a four stroke lead going into the final hole?!"

Because that's essentially what he did in the Bike episode, when that Dot Com guy called Mel Judah's allin bet with the wheel vs. Judah's bigger straight. Sexton hit it right on the head: Why call there? You can only beat a bluff, and Judah wouldn't have bet allin with 2 pair or a set, so you're either looking to pick off a stone bluff, or hoping for a split pot. AND THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE POT.

But VVP kept saying "How do you lay down a straight?," while Sexton said "It's easy, just throw 'em in the muck."

And he was right.

Just as he was right at the end of the Borgata, when both players started acting like fishy amateurs. That Charlie guy cost himself plenty of chips cracking out of turn with his K-high call, and Sexton made a point of it, as well he should have.

Apparently, it's a case of "THE TRUTH?! You can't handle the truth!"

[Lazymeatball]

[Mike Gallo]

Leon,

Good rant.

[TylerD]

[ QUOTE ]
But Mike Sexton knows what he's talking about.

[/ QUOTE ] [and Vince doesn't]

That's why they work so well together, Vince says what "everyone" is thinking and Mike explains what the pro is thinking - they make a great team.

PS: Jesse May rocks! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[scotnt73]

i think both comparisons are stupid but in no way racist.

[Gamblor]

Khalid, Nicole, and Jason have been called, for many years, "Brown", "Gina" and "Chinker" respectively. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Non-Jewish friends have called me "kikeberg/kikestein", etc.

Among real friends, these jokes make fun of stereotypes so ridiculous that they can only be made fun of.

Here's one:
Why did the BMW come with extra gas?
For the Jew who bought it.

I encourage you to all submit your most vile jokes here.

[Gamblor]

She looks like a Muppet.

[Homer]

Through the grape vine a few players from the first season where pretty pissed off at him for some comments on play.

Usually people getting pissed off is a good indication that the person they are getting pissed off at is doing a good job.

-- Homer

[MasterShakes]

I just wanted to comment on a few things people have said.

I never said that the WPT announcers came up with the "Tiger Woods of poker" comment - simply that they hammered it to death.

I don't see what I'm saying as a "cause" by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not even really that bent out of shape about it. All I'm saying is that the Travel Channel will need to keep these guys in check once in awhile. I'm not offended by racist comments, but that is likely because I'm not usually part of the minority that is being insulted.

To me, these comments are racist in the way they would be racist for anybody working in the media - they are there simply to point out the person's race, and to lump them in with somebody else of the same race or nationality. It doesn't have to be a hateful statement to be racist - simply stereotypical.

That some of you may make blatantly racist comments in your private lives seems totally irrelevant here, since those comments are in private, and these comments are on a widely broadcasted cable tv show.

My post was not meant to say that I'm insulted by the comments - only that the TC needs to be careful.

[Mike Gallo]

Usually people getting pissed off is a good indication that the person they are getting pissed off at is doing a good job.

One name...Tim McCarver.

[daryn]

that was just to show that no punches are pulled, everyone on earth is fair game!

[Rushmore]

So then your point was that even the Italians, who are universally-recognized as fully-evolved and essentially faultless, kind and simple God-fearing folks, aren't safe in the arena of the hate-crime vitriol of virulent bigotry you and your little klan of buddies spews?

OK, then.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I can't wait to see your reaction when VVP refers to Q3 as a "San Francisco Busboy."

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I can't for the life of me figure out why you are offended by these statements. Tiger Woods is not only light skinned and black, he's also one of the top golfers in the world, and he definitely took the world of golf by storm, especially when he won the masters. Antonio Banderas is a highly paid and successful actor. He also is apparently of spanish decent (I know little about him really). Neither of Vince's comments offended me, and they likely didn't offend those they were made towards either.

The big joke in certain san diego poker circles is that "queens are always wild." Never been to west hollywood, but I suppose there is a large population of "queens" there. Big deal. PC sux. Go Vince.

al

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Last season on the WPT, I ignored the announcers calling Phil Ivey the "Tiger Woods of the poker world". I'm not a very picky person when it comes to politically incorrect statements. I gave the announcers the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe it's a compliment and has nothing to do with the fact that Ivey is a young, light-skinned black man.

You are aware that Tiger Woods is Asian (Thai, to be precise).

[daryn]

no my point is that i am italian, but have no problem making fun of myself. i thought the point was clear.

why are you calling my friends a klan? man you have problems..

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[WDC]

Another name- Johnny Miller

[southerndog]

You calling Van Patten a bigot for those comments is more offensive than anything Van Patten has said.

None of Van Patten's comments are even offensive.
Tiger Woods of poker: He looks just like Tiger Woods.
Its not cause of their skin colors.
If he looked like Jack Nicklaus, and was called the
Jack Nicklaus of poker, would that be racist?

There was a band named Queen, and it was because
they were gay. What's the big deal.

Dude, get a new cause.

[MasterShakes]

"Bigot" was an extreme word - I take it back.

Again, I'm not saying that I personally have a problem with what Van Patten said. I definitely think it was a stupid comment. All I suggest is that the TC (or the production company that handles the WPT) instruct both announcers to be a little bit more cautious about what they say while announcing. I'm sure everybody remembers the overblown Rush Limbaugh incident. Though I dislike Limbaugh, I though he received a lot of undue criticism for a comment that had far more reason behind it (however misguided that reasoning may have been) than what Van Patten said last night and has said in the past.

It would be a strong business decision to be more cautious about what is said on the air. I am not typically an overly PC person, but there is no doubt that the world itself has grown to be more PC, and it is this world that the WPT is playing to.

I still maintain that the "Banderas" comment was motivated at a minimum by the common nationality - they look nothing alike and have nothing in common except for their national origin. There was no rational reason for making the comment.

This is not a "cause" of mine as some people have said. I don't care whether the WPT decides to reign in their announcers at all. I simply think it would be wise to do so to some degree.

[Rushmore]

Daryn, I have always thought that your posts clearly indicated intelligence, insight, wit, and reason.

I was joking. My point was hypersensitivity. I was assuming the role of the hypersensitive leftist liberal crapbag who finds offense in everything.

Sorry to be too vague.

Come back to us now. Come on. There, there. Everything's ok again.

Muaw.

[daryn]

it's ok, i wasn't offended, just trying to defend my friends! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

if i was the type to get all bent out of shape over what you said, i would be quite the hypocrite!

[DonWaade]

[ QUOTE ]
Usually people getting pissed off is a good indication that the person they are getting pissed off at is doing a good job.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
One name...Tim McCarver.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also Jim Gray.

[glen]

Good post, and I agree completely. It reminds me of when the x games first emerged (I was a skatboarder as a yute), and the announcers (vvp types) didn't know what any of the tricks were called, so they just reduced like 500 tricks to expressions like "crazy aerial maneuver" or "he's going so high! Woo!" ungh. . . they should have one of those espn/ american idol reality shows for announcer of the wpt, and have zee, snakehead, and elysium on the panel. . . .

[RydenStoompala]

Vince Van Patten is the Anna Kornikova of the television world. This'll probably get the Russian mob in my face, but so be it. Tiger is the Wayne Gretsky of TV commercials. Grestky is the Barry Bonds of real estate investing. I think the moment we stick a muzzle on folks, barring something really and truly nasty like "Helmuth wears womens clothing to the grocery store," we lose. Second thought, Phil would find that funny.

[AAmaz0n]

I've been somewhat ambivalent about QQ; I haven't liked hearing it reffered to as "Siegfried and Roy" - especially when straight people say it - it did seem deragatory. So "West Hollywood" seems like a big improvement, and I get a kick out of having a hand named after my hometown.

It's not totally PC, but then again WeHo is often not PC either, despite argueably being the most "fabulous" city in America /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Kurn- I thought that Q3 was the "Gay waiter?" Now this term is so seriously non-PC enough that only someone who is queer themselves should be able to use it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Shauna

[Ulysses]

all VVP-bashers (and I'm no fan) should be watching ESPN's Dream Job. Holy cow, this is the best out of tens of thousands of applicants. Being a sportscaster is probably harder than it looks. Now, sure, Vince does color and it's not live, so it's very different. But this Dream Job show is still really entertaining.

[spamuell]

Tiger Woods/Phil Ivey... meh, as Ulysees said you can just argue "young black guy playing at the highest level and winning in predominately white field" etc. But this isn't funny:

Why did the BMW come with extra gas?
For the Jew who bought it.


No, it's not OK because you're Jewish - millions and millions of real people died in the holocaust, I don't need to tell you about the monstrosities that happened during it.

Your being Jewish doesn't make you telling this joke OK, it makes it worse.

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't need to tell you about the monstrosities that happened during it.

Your being Jewish doesn't make you telling this joke OK, it makes it worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see merits to both sides of these debates (which happen all the time on the Internet, imagine that). However, this one always pisses me off.

Stop trying to impose your "holier-than-thou" morals on everyone else. Just because different people cope with things in different ways, and have different levels of sensitivity, does not make you a "better" person than everyone else for showing how serious you understood an event to be.

[Aceshigh7]

Sheesh. I can't believe there are still people so freaking uptight as to get worked up over VVP and his comments. The guy is a great commentator and he is funny as hell.

Maybe one day Hillary will be in the white house and then I'm sure you and your politically correct democrat cronies can wipe out all vestiges of interesting banter and further homogenize our entertainment choices.

These type of people need to get a life and stop looking for reasons to be offended.

[spamuell]

Stop trying to impose your "holier-than-thou" morals on everyone else.

Sorry, isn't your post trying to impose your morals about what is appropriate to post on to me?

Look, I can't prove that I'm right or wrong about what is acceptable to make jokes about, but the holocaust isn't funny. As far as I'm concerned, that's the end of it - call me a close-minded bigot if you will.

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry, isn't your post trying to impose your morals about what is appropriate to post on to me?

Look, I can't prove that I'm right or wrong about what is acceptable to make jokes about, but the holocaust isn't funny. As far as I'm concerned, that's the end of it - call me a close-minded bigot if you will.

[/ QUOTE ]

You threw the first stone didn't you? You should have an utterly defensible position, and be prepared for the recoil.

I'm sure most everyone agrees the holocaust was a terrible and tragic thing. But to go around telling people they shouldn't be making jokes about it, and thereby implying they don't have enough deference for the tragedy, or that they have a lacking set of morals, seems a bit judgmental to me.

[MCS]

The Phil Ivey "Tiger Woods of poker" stuff makes a whole lot more sense than the Antonio Banderas comments. As Ulysses also pointed out, at least with Ivey and Woods, there are parallels in that both are young, rich, popular, and at the top of their respective fields. Though I feel sure that their skin color plays into it too.

I'm sick of hearing about how "political correctness" is ruining the country. It's usually people who have never been subjected to any negative discrimination that spout off about it, as if they have any clue what it's like to be a minority in America.

You know, most people wouldn't be offended by words if there were never any action behind it. If we could be sure no one harbored any sort of bigoted attitudes, we wouldn't have to worry about our speech.

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
She looks like a Muppet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You only say that 'cause you're Canadian. You like girls with piano hinged mouths like Phillip and Terrence /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think for a normalish girl next door type, she's smokin'. I like 'em looking like they'd been rode hard and put away wet..,

[Gamblor]

My being Jewish has nothing to do with it.

Nor is it not making fun of anyone (including my great-grandparents) who may have perished.

It is an unexpected response to what seems like a fairly routine question.

As for your logic that my being Jewish makes the joke worse:

What did the black kid give his mom for her birthday?
Your bike.

Now, does my not being black that make that joke okay?

[Gamblor]

It's two completely separate things to rip on someone via issues of race, and take shots at someone you know and have respect for, for the sake of humour.

Likewise, it is one thing for a total moron to send me that PM I posted in the OT and Zoo Forums. That doesn't mean anything, nor should it. If he had told me about Jews loving money, it still doesn't mean anything, nor if he had called you a stupid wop dago (or little wop, as is the case with Nicole, who I am going to marry if she ever lets me /images/graemlins/grin.gif). It's a name. Nothing more.

It is something else entirely to post (and orate) under the guise of serious academics who try to rationalize their bigotry - those are the people that piss me off. You could say I'm bigoted against them. When they make serious claims in the attempt to convince others that an entire ethnicity/race/religion/nation is inherently inferior or evil, by manufacturing facts, that might influence otherwise indifferent people that there "might be something to that idea". That is when I go to war.

Certain Other Topics Forum participants seem to be very good at this.

[Softrock]

Well, I don't believe I'm a bigot (of course the most bigotted people in the world don't usually think of themselves as bigots) but I do have a sense of humor and the Queens just set up too many scenarios begging for some sort of double entendre. I was born and raised in San Francisco. Recently at the Bellagio my neighber lost a big pot with QQ - the very next hand I got the same hand and won a decent pot. I commented "Hey, I'm from San Francisco, I know what to do with Queens" and got some good laughs from around the table. I've run it by two "gay " friends who both thought it was hilarious.

[Taxman]

[ QUOTE ]
It is something else entirely to post (and orate) under the guise of serious academics who try to rationalize their bigotry - those are the people that piss me off. You could say I'm bigoted against them. When they make serious claims in the attempt to convince others that an entire ethnicity/race/religion/nation is inherently inferior or evil, by manufacturing facts, that might influence otherwise indifferent people that there "might be something to that idea". That is when I go to war.

Certain Other Topics Forum participants seem to be very good at this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear, Hear!

[jedi]

Tiger is also part Chinese (though he's more Thai than Chinese) and also part Caucasian (though more African than Caucasian). So, if any one of us young studs does well in tournaments, we could all be considered the Tiger Woods of Poker. Besides, I think Phil Ivey looks way more like Alex Rodriguez than Tiger Woods.

About the rest of the race/racist comments, it is good to note that sometimes when people are talking about "race" they're really discussing "culture." Most jokes are cultural jokes. It's just that the culture that you're talking about happens to be very homogenous to one color. Stuff about rednecks are about the white southern culture. Many jokes about blacks refer to their culture. Yes, some of these jokes are racist (especially if you start referring to stereotypical physical features), but others are cultural in nature. Is this right? Probably not, but don't brand someone a racist just because they have the word "black" in their jokes.

Where I draw the line is when you start treating people differently because of their skin color, or start disparaging them because of it. Then you're marking racial differences where none should exist, and that's not right.

[ QUOTE ]

You are aware that Tiger Woods is Asian (Thai, to be precise).

[/ QUOTE ]

[TheGrifter]

[spamuell]

My being Jewish has nothing to do with it.

You're probably right, I was angry when I wrote that post. But it certainly doesn't make it OK to make jokes about the holocaust.

Now, does my not being black that make that joke okay?

OK, firstly just because doing action A is worse than doing action B, this clearly doesn't mean that it's OK to do action B, just that action A is worse - got that?

Anyway, I was wrong that your religion makes telling a joke worse, I don't think that is the case.

But it is still distasteful to make jokes about the holocaust.