Chris Moneymaker is not a fish

[SaintAces]

discuss.


I personally can't stand the heat he takes and I think he is a fully capable player. any other opinoins?

[Robk]

I played with him in stars 2/4 NL (back before 3/6 was spread), although only for a few hours. I thought he was about the third or fourth best player at the table but it was a pretty tough lineup.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
discuss.
--
I personally can't stand the heat he takes and I think he is a fully capable player. any other opinoins?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, after talking w/ JA Sucker last night, all I'll say is that Chris might have some work to do on his 20-200 spread limit game.

On a more general level, I've said this before: I don't think anyone is likely to win the WSOP w/ that size field without a fair amount of luck. I also don't think anyone is likely to win the WSOP w/ that size field without a fair amount of skill.

[kingstalker]

After he got knocked out of last Sundays 500+30 he played a 300+20 SNG, gank was one of his opponets, he won it playing very solid poker.

[krazyace5]

I think it stems from jealousy.

[J_V]

there is truth to it...he's not great. But then again, most of the best pros aren't.

It's more so people thinking "damn, that coulda been me."

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
there is truth to it...he's not great. But then again, most of the best pros aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by this? And, what pros are you referring to?

danny

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I've little experience playing with Chris. However, I did not see him make any terrible plays on either the WSOP telecast, nor the few times I've played with him on PStars. There are other players, both live and online, who have very strong reputations, and whom I have seen make terrible plays.

So I conclude that even if Chris isn't a great player, he's certainly not a poor player. I suspect he is somewhere between the ranks of well-above average and excellent. Unless he's somebody who sometimes goes on big tilt, I am pretty sure he is a +EV player at almost any level.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[ohkanada]

I noticed on Pokerpages that he is in 6th place in the WPT 5k NL event that just started yesterday at the Bay 101. Appears to be 45 players left, so maybe we will see him on the travel channel as well as ESPN.

Of course he could still be a fish, but until one of us end up 1st in a 5 day event, I guess I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Ken Poklitar

[J.A.Sucker]

Chris is a very nice guy and I've played a bit with him over the past few days. He also plays TOURNAMENTS very well. He's one of the chip leaders at the end of Day 1 at Bay 101 this week, and I think he's got as good a shot as any at making the final table. I also think that he's a more than capable player when he's playing well. However, in a live game, most people can't play their best all the time, and this is likely his primary problem. This isn't a knock on him, it's just a fact. I know players who are better than I am, but I know that I win much more money than they do in live action games for one reason. I don't tilt. That's my skill, so I play live. A tourney player doesn't really need this skill, since one big beat and you're done anyway, and the survival attitude makes steaming less likely.


Chris also doesn't adjust to game structures as well as some - I would let him play my money any time in a live NL game as long as the stack wasn't terribly deep, but if it got deeper, I don't know. Also, he didn't adjust to the funky spread limit structure that we were playing and I don't think his skill set is well-suited to limit poker. However, the guy's got tons of heart and good card sense. He's also been playing quite a bit of poker since his win and has improved a great deal, I think, mostly because his confidence level has improved. One could see how big of a deal confidence is in his game even watching the WSOP replay. That play he made on Farha headsup was tremendous. Ironically, if Farha had thought that he was a better player (and one capable of making such a play), it wouldn't have worked, because Sammy would have called instead of waiting for a better spot to get his money in. That's poker, and Chris did a hell of a job.

For those who are jealous of the man, don't be. People should really be happy for him; he's just a normal guy, and is still down-to-earth, as opposed to most of these pain-in-the-ass tourney guys who have been annoying the hell out of me for the past week. I wish him luck in the Shooting Star, and hope to see him at the final table.

This is just my opinion, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris is a very nice guy and I've played a bit with him over the past few days. He also plays TOURNAMENTS very well. He's one of the chip leaders at the end of Day 1 at Bay 101 this week, and I think he's got as good a shot as any at making the final table.

[/ QUOTE ]

QUASI-SPOILER WARNING/Shooting Stars Update
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Stopped in on my way home from work to see who was left. It was down to 17 players, and the "name" players left were Dan Negreanu, Phil Gordon and - Chris Moneymaker. The buzz was that Moneymaker really can play tournaments.

Negreanu looked to be somewhat short-stacked (50-60k?), Moneymaker average (just over 100k), and Gordon was probably the chip leader with a huge stack of over 300k.

[jayadd]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, after talking w/ JA Sucker last night, all I'll say is that Chris might have some work to do on his 20-200 spread limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you kidding me Why on earth would he need work. Anyone of us with an IQ over 30 (Varkoni misses the cut at 28) would enjoy the ability to make what ever mistakes he posibly can. The guy is set for life. He is probably the first WSOP champion or any major tourney winner of 1 million or more who was able to say " this was fun but not what i want to do for a living."
Some people are so fast to become critics when someone succeeds. No one has mentioned Varkoni and his idiotic comments he made that the camera caught. (as you can tell i have issues with varkoni but thats for another time)

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, after talking w/ JA Sucker last night, all I'll say is that Chris might have some work to do on his 20-200 spread limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you kidding me Why on earth would he need work. Anyone of us with an IQ over 30 (Varkoni misses the cut at 28) would enjoy the ability to make what ever mistakes he posibly can. The guy is set for life. He is probably the first WSOP champion or any major tourney winner of 1 million or more who was able to say " this was fun but not what i want to do for a living."
Some people are so fast to become critics when someone succeeds. No one has mentioned Varkoni and his idiotic comments he made that the camera caught. (as you can tell i have issues with varkoni but thats for another time)

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? What is your point? The guy obviously is interested in playing poker. Why wouldn't he need work on games that he's not terribly good at?

If I recall, the WSOP he won was worth 2M or so. He sold how much of his action, 20%, maybe more? Let's say 20%, that leaves him w/ 1.6M. After taxes that's about 800k. That's a nice chunk of money, but that's just about enough to buy a not terribly nice home around where I live. Of course, that money goes a lot farther in Tennessee, but buy a house, pay some bills, etc. and it would be pretty easy to lose the rest in big poker games. So, yes, if he's going to play high limit poker (and I'm not talking about a little 20-200 spread game), he definitely should work on his game where it needs work.

[krazyace5]

Gotta know, What did Varkoni say or do, that was before I started watching poker.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone of us with an IQ over 30 (Varkoni misses the cut at 28) would enjoy the ability to make what ever mistakes he posibly can. The guy is set for life. He is probably the first WSOP champion or any major tourney winner of 1 million or more who was able to say " this was fun but not what i want to do for a living."


[/ QUOTE ]

I think its funny that you mention Varkoni here since MM is the one who seems to be taking a shot at this whol ehigh stakes poker thing and Varkoni is the guy who seems to be happy to sit back and enjoy his $Million.

[Ruddiger]

moneymaker made the final 6

Phil Gordon 1,238,000
2 Masoud Shojaei 416,000
3 Chris Moneymaker 215,000
4 Scott Wilson 203,000
5 Mark Mache 175,000
6 Susan Kim 172,000

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
If I recall, the WSOP he won was worth 2M or so. He sold how much of his action, 20%, maybe more? Let's say 20%, that leaves him w/ 1.6M. After taxes that's about 800k.

[/ QUOTE ]
That can't be right; even if the top marginal rate is 50%, surely it doesn't kick in until at least 400K. I always thought that in Canada the tax rate was much higher than in the U.S., but here the top marginal rate (federal and provincial combined) is less than 50%.

Also keep in mind that Nevada (where he earned the money) has no state income tax. I don't know if Moneymaker would have to pay Tennessee state income tax on his win, but I doubt it.

Also I think his gross prize was closer to $2.5M than $2M.

So I don't really know, but I suspect that after taxes he'd be left with considerably more than 800K.

[eMarkM]

We'll get to see Chris play on the WPT:

Standings going into final table:

Seat 1 Chris Moneymaker 215,000 Chips

Seat 2 Susan Kim 172,000 Chips

Seat 3 Masoud Shojaci 416,000 Chips

Seat 4 Mark Macha 175,000 Chips

Seat 5 Scott Wilson 203,000 Chips

Seat 6 Phil Gordon 1,238,000 Chips

[driller]

In the immortal words of Jim Rome: "Scoreboard"

[M.B.E.]

I liked this article by Jay Greenspan (http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/moneymaker.html) about playing in a game with Moneymaker at Foxwoods. The article is on pokersavvy.com.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
Also keep in mind that Nevada (where he earned the money) has no state income tax. I don't know if Moneymaker would have to pay Tennessee state income tax on his win, but I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]
He will owe Tenn tax. Income tax in the U.S. is based upon your state of residence, AND the state where the money is earned. If Nevada did tax him, he could deduct that amount from what he pays to Tenn, but if Tenn charges more (which it does in this case), he will owe tax to Tenn as well.



[/ QUOTE ]Also I think his gross prize was closer to $2.5M than $2M.

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I recall, it was exactly $2.5M. Also, what I heard is he sold 40% of himself for $4000 before he left Tenn. Half to his Dad and half to a friend. If true, he kept $1.5M, and probably paid about 36-40% of that in income tax (I have no idea how high taxes go in Tenn). He probably kept roughly $900K after taxes.

That's enough to make me happy.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[CCass]

As a life long resident of TN, I can tell you that Moneymaker paid nothing to the state of TN for his winnings, as we have no income tax. All we have is a 9.75% sales tax.

[southerndog]

[jayadd]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its funny that you mention Varkoni here since MM is the one who seems to be taking a shot at this whol ehigh stakes poker thing and Varkoni is the guy who seems to be happy to sit back and enjoy his $Million.

[/ QUOTE ]

Varkoni is not....

[jayadd]

[ QUOTE ]

Gotta know, What did Varkoni say or do, that was before I started watching poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
there was a shot of varkoni and his POKER COACH and his couch says to him "do you know the guy sitting next to you" he says looks familiar but no so his coach tells him its padrig harrington (very well known player if you do your homework.) Varkoni responds well he looked familiar but i couldnt put a face with a name. His coach says he made the final table in i forget what year. So varkoni says " is he any good? " DUMB ASS......

[M.B.E.]

This is getting off-topic, but isn't it horribly regressive for a state to obtain all of its income through a sales tax? It means that wealthy people pay hardly anything in tax in relation to their income, while poor people pay quite a lot of tax in relation to their income.

In Nevada it makes sense, I suppose, since the state must get a huge amount of revenue from casino licences, but that wouldn't apply to Tennessee.

[J.A.Sucker]

Great for him! I wish him luck. In any event, this is terrific for poker, too!

[Glenn]

"he says looks familiar but no so his coach tells him its padrig harrington (very well known player if you do your homework.)"

Were they on a golf course? Padraig Harrington is a golfer.

"So varkoni says " is he any good? " DUMB ASS...... "

So you are using the fact that Varkoni asks if someone who made the final table is any good (because he should obviously, in your mind, know that someone who made the final table is good) to prove that he, who also made the final table, and won the event, is not good?

[mike l.]

"After taxes that's about 800k. That's a nice chunk of money, but that's just about enough to buy a not terribly nice home around where I live."

i agree. from what i understand it's about how much you keep in your party poker account any given week.

[Ulysses]

I used to live in Texas. No income tax there either. Now I live in oppressive CA where it's outrageously high. Without income tax, it's likely he netted closer to $1M. Anyway, my main point in that response was simply to the person who said Chris was set for life and didn't think there was any need/reason for him to work on his poker game. One million dollars doesn't go that far any more and for many people it's far from being set for life. If someone wants to play high stakes cash games and all they have is a million dollars, yeah, I'd suggest they work on those games. That's all.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
"After taxes that's about 800k. That's a nice chunk of money, but that's just about enough to buy a not terribly nice home around where I live."
...
i agree. from what i understand it's about how much you keep in your party poker account any given week.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's about 801k after you paid off my AK like a slot machine last night. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nottom]

I've also heard that people have played against Varkoni in low stakes limit games since he won the WSOP. I seem to remember hearing that the WSOP is basically the only tourney he plays in and just because he gets himself a coach for the big one doesn't mean he's trying to be a big time pro.

Moneymaker on the other hand is much more active in the poker world right now than Varkoni is.

[krazyace5]

[ QUOTE ]
From what I recall, it was exactly $2.5M. Also, what I heard is he sold 40% of himself for $4000 before he left Tenn. Half to his Dad and half to a friend. If true, he kept $1.5M, and probably paid about 36-40% of that in income tax (I have no idea how high taxes go in Tenn). He probably kept roughly $900K after taxes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Talk about a great investment.

[Army Eye]

By my calculation, Moneymaker has now played in five (?) big buy-in tourneys in his life, and made the final table in two, winning one and placing second in the other? Not bad at all.

[scotnt73]

you guys are also forgetting how much hes made since wsop in indorsements(sp?). i once heard TJ state that winning the wsop was worth another million in appearances. im not comparing chris to TJ but he stated that 3-5 years ago and holdem is much bigger now so i assume that moneymaker made at least another million or two after the wsop. i saw somewhere where chris stated that after the wsop he was getting so many offers that he had to hire an agent.

[Tyler Durden]

I read that article by Jay Greenspan. What's up with Moneymaker coldcalling with 85 on the button? And then mucking top two when it was a winner? I was expecting the author to say something like "Then I drifted back to reality..."

Very strange that the world champion coldcalled with 85.

[Tyler Durden]

Also, I don't like that Foxwoods ruling at all. I thought that committs him to a call just about everywhere. Just about is right, I guess.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to live in Texas. No income tax there either.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is there a corporate income tax? Or no income tax at all? Does the state have some other source of income, or is it primarily the sales tax it uses to pay for all the executions and suchlike?

[slavic]

property tax

[jayg]

[ QUOTE ]
I read that article by Jay Greenspan. What's up with Moneymaker coldcalling with 85 on the button? And then mucking top two when it was a winner? I was expecting the author to say something like "Then I drifted back to reality..."

Very strange that the world champion coldcalled with 85.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that strange, I think. He felt (probably rightly) that he hand a huge skill advantage and could outplay me post-flop with position. You can't play like that unless you're willing to make huge laydowns. In this case I continued to represent the overpair which would counterfeit his two-pair (pair of 2s on-board). So he made the laydown.

Against an unknown opponent who appears tight and is representing AA/KK, seems to me a very prudent play.

Jay Greenspan

[Tyler Durden]

I understand his muck of top two, I don't see how that coldcall could ever be a good play. I understand it's big bet and I'm a limit player, but still. Okay I'm done now.

[J_V]

Pros that I think are overrated? Practically all of them. It's almost certain that the most famous players have greatly overachieved there desereved EV and are famous because of it. Almost all tourney prosplay badly at other games. I've played with a few that are good, Johnny World Hennigan seems okay, Allen Cunningham, Matusow.

[mike l.]

"Johnny World Hennigan seems okay'

hennigan! yeah that's the guy, the bald whitey right? yeah he was having a heck of a time the other day in a really good looking 800-1600 game at commerce. he looked pretty steamed.

[baggins]

[J_V]

Yeah, that's him. He's a tough customer. I only played him at the 1-2 at stars. I think he was playing some huge triple draw too.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I've also heard that people have played against Varkoni in low stakes limit games since he won the WSOP. I seem to remember hearing that the WSOP is basically the only tourney he plays in and just because he gets himself a coach for the big one doesn't mean he's trying to be a big time pro.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've played with him at the Borgata. Didn't realize it was him for a while--very low key guy. Playing small enough for my bankroll, which is saying something... /images/graemlins/smile.gif He made a pretty good laydown against me of what seemed like decent top pair when I called the flop, CR'd the turn. Didn't seem to bother him that much to let it go. I was impressed, having had a much more negative impression of his play from the ESPN broadcast.

scrub

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
It's almost certain that the most famous players have greatly overachieved there desereved EV and are famous because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really, you're "almost" certain that Moneymaker's EV going into the WSOP was less than $2.49-million? What would it take to make you completely certain?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Yea.

Well if I chased such longshot draws on a regular basis everyone would be saying the same thing about me.

discuss that.

al

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea.

Well if I chased such longshot draws on a regular basis everyone would be saying the same thing about me.

discuss that.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what longshot draws did he exactly chase?

[Lee Jones]

I had a front row seat to watch Chris play in the final table of the Shooting Stars at Bay 101. He played (IMHO) brilliantly. He took a couple of very rough beats, including AQ losing to AJ, and a spectacular loss on the final hand of the tournament that will definitely make the replay reels at the WPT. Were it not for those, he could have easily won the whole thing. But his play was rock-solid throughout.

And there's something else that I'd like to mention. You didn't mention this, but I think it's worth discussing. Chris and his story have brought millions of people to poker in the last year. More new players than any of us thought we'd see in a lifetime. We (poker players) have gone from being black sheep at family gatherings to the celebrities. And there are basically two things that we can thank for that: 1. the World Poker Tour, and 2. Chris Moneymaker.

As I posted over in RGP, Chris is unfailingly polite with fans who want to shake his hand, get his autograph, or have their picture taken with him. No matter how insistent, obnoxious, or unaware they are, he is always gracious (like, ever had somebody come up to you, throw their arm around you and smile for a camera that has magically appeared out of a crowd, without so much as a word of request?)

Poker players have traditionally acted as if they owe the world nothing, and politeness won't get you a cup of coffee (I heard Puggy say that more than once). They never seemed to figure out that if poker (and its players) were more attractive and approachable, they might have something huge on their hands. Well, the synergy of the WPT and Chris Moneymaker has produced that tidal wave, and I (like every other poker author) am riding it for all it's worth.

So I owe Chris a huge debt of thanks, and I think that basically every other poker player does too.

But to reiterate my original answer: no, Chris is not a fish - the man can play some no-limit tournament Texas Hold'em for real.

Regards, Lee

P.S. Disclaimer: yes, Chris works for PokerStars. I work for PokerStars. Whatever. I'd be a huge fan of his no matter what, and I think my posting record at both RGP and here, prior to my involvement at PokerStars and prior to Chris's fame will support that.

[Ikke]

I totally agree with you. I've played Moneymaker in 10 succesive 1k HU sit and go's before he was to play Fahra. We both won 5 and it was always very close and challenging. He's a tough player in NL Hold'em. Very aggressive, but with a good timing.

He just should be careful not to venture too much in the big limit Hold'em games (yet), but I think he knows that. I've played some 100/200 with him, but there he might have some leaks. But hey... if you have 2M he should do whatever he thinks is fun.

As for him being a gentleman, amen to that as well. I don't know if I could do the same with all those jealous, I-know-it-better railbirds harrassing you and still be polite.

Summarizing I think Moneymaker is grossly underestimated. I actually DO think people can hear more from him in the future, especially in NL tourneys. And, all that aside, he is a great person who doesnt deserve the flaming he gets.

Regards

[daryn]

finally a guy who knows what he's talking about, comes out and commends chris' play. are idiots out there still going to give him a hard time? yes.

i hear it all the time.. some loser in a party poker chatroom saying something like

"did you hear moneymaker got 2nd in a wpt tourney recently? LOL ROLF LMAO!!!"

[Stew]

I just want to say for the record that I have previously been critical of Chris. However, I have never been particularly criticial of his play. Face it, when you win a tournament with 800+ players in it, you will get lucky several times and draw out on someone who got their money in with the best hand. Nevertheless, what I had previously been critical of Chris was his constant fist-pumping and shows of emotion during the WSOP. I felt that it wasn't particularly respectful. However, I will give Chris credit for the fact that he always shook his opponents hand and never was outwright disrespectful, I just felt he got a little caught up in the moment and he came off as cocky and arrogant. But, given the situation, it's understandable.

It's good to hear that he treats fans and others who want his attention so well, that certainly bolsters my opinion of him (not that my opinion particularly matters).

But, I am interested to see the Bay 101 WPT show. I think this will give everyone a better barometer as to what kind of a player Chris is as we will see him for two hours (edited of probably at least 6-8 playing hours) at one table with the same players. Certainly finishing second in another major tournament within a year of his last win is a major accomplishment and should automatically lend credence to his merit as a player.

[toots]

What? First ever big stakes tournament, and he's supposed to sit there and do his Ben Stein imitation "I'm so happy I almost feel like smiling?"

Were that me, I'd be dancing a jig, and I don't know how to dance. Tough.

Getting on someone's case for acting happy when he has good reason to be happy just seems like it ranks pretty low on the list of things to do.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
What? First ever big stakes tournament, and he's supposed to sit there and do his Ben Stein imitation "I'm so happy I almost feel like smiling?"

Were that me, I'd be dancing a jig, and I don't know how to dance. Tough.

Getting on someone's case for acting happy when he has good reason to be happy just seems like it ranks pretty low on the list of things to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't just at the final table, mind you. He did it everytime he won a big hand. Have you seen former world champions act like that when they won, or even when they won big hands - no.

That's my point, that's all. As I said, it's understandable, but I think that's why people view him negatively at times, that sort of attitude rubs people wrong.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
what I had previously been critical of Chris was his constant fist-pumping and shows of emotion during the WSOP

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I didn't like either. Same thing goes for the woman who won the women's WPT, I think her name was zoey, she was blonde.

danny

[krazyace5]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen former world champions act like that when they won, or even when they won big hands - no

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[toots]

Well, I s'pose I see your point if you think it made him look cocky or arrogant.

I never read it that way. It just looked to me like he was very happy and thankful for his luck.

It all just seemed to a part of that "Average Tennessee Nobody Hits It Big" theme that EOE was trying to push with their editing.

But, I can understand the contrasting views. For instance, get me (or just about anyone else) started on Helmuth's conduct...

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
That's what I didn't like either. Same thing goes for the woman who won the women's WPT, I think her name was zoey, she was blonde.

danny

[/ QUOTE ]

Cloney?

[wm r the rake]

I can't believe that people are giving Chris so much grief about how he acts and the amazing accomplishment to which we all dream about....Had it been a "professional" making the moves Chris made, people would be commending him on why he is a "professional" and that he was making the perfect moves at the perfect times and also how the "professional" was reading his opponents correctly and he knew the other player was weak....yeah jump into their minds before they see the flop and i bet they are not as arrogant as they come off as...especially when they know they are bluffing!!! I met Chris when i was attending the WSOP and even before he made it to the final table he was very nice and friendly and we spoke briefly about how exciting this was just to be attending and seeing all the atmosphere behind the biggest event in poker history...i just think it's a double standard when you have an amateur vs. "professional"

[theBruiser500]

Right, Cloney, I hate her guts.

WM R RAKE, I don't know what you're talking about.

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen former world champions act like that when they won, or even when they won big hands - no.


[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, Carlos Mortensen was visibly animated a few times during the Borgata telecast (especially when he rivered out the poor novice). Scotty Nguyen is another who is quite animated (although Scotty is ALWAYS like that it seems).

I will agree that Moneymaker's victory laps and high fiving with the crowd was over the top, but I don't think he should be raked over the coals for it when other players are not.

[theBruiser500]

Don't bring Scotty Nguyen into this. Everyone knows how much incomparably cooler Nguyen is than MoneyMaker.

danny

[Tyler Durden]

Dumb comment. Ngyuen's KT eliminated someone (Johnathan Kaplan) with JJ when the flop was Ten high and then he rivered two pair. He was high-fiving people. Brilliant suckout. Moneymaker isn't the only one to celebrate.

[Your Mom]

and Scotty also threw in a loud yeah, baby I believe as well. Not a very sportsmanlike thing to do when you have just eliminated another player, huh?

Personally, I don't mind celebrating like Moneymaker or Scotty did. I'd be crapping myself if I won a big hand at the WSOP.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

88 vs. AA and QQQ vs 999QQ.

al

[z32fanatic]

I agree that he shouldn't have been yelling but I also understand that his adrenaline was probably pumping more than any of us could imagine. I hated Watkins in the WSOP after he celebrated by hitting a 2 outer on the river to eliminate someone. I think the more proper etiquette was that of Darden when he knocked someone out with a flush to his AK. He was like, "Sorry, I had to play it after the flop." I think admitting that you read a player wrong after eliminating him is better and I do it every time that happens.

[daryn]

i think all this talk about non-sportsmanlike behavior is bullshite. you should be able to pump your fists in the air.. just like in basketball or baseball.. what is wrong with it? it's not rubbing it into someone elses face, it's just a personal celebration.

get over it!

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
i think all this talk about non-sportsmanlike behavior is bullshite. you should be able to pump your fists in the air.. just like in basketball or baseball.. what is wrong with it? it's not rubbing it into someone elses face, it's just a personal celebration.

get over it!

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. i didnt see him do anything i wouldnt do if i had millions within my reach. except i prob would have vomited onto the table at some point from nerves. we are talking about a life changing amount of money and fame-you guys wouldnt get PUMPED UP for that? if i was sweatin you from the rail as a guest and you just moved up from 200K to 500k because you just eliminated someone on the river your saying you wouldnt give me a high five?-bu11$hit

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen former world champions act like that when they won, or even when they won big hands - no

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, name one and when. OK, well I have seen it, but only at the Final Table in a major tournament, but it doesn't happen often.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe that people are giving Chris so much grief about how he acts and the amazing accomplishment to which we all dream about....Had it been a "professional" making the moves Chris made, people would be commending him on why he is a "professional" and that he was making the perfect moves at the perfect times and also how the "professional" was reading his opponents correctly and he knew the other player was weak....yeah jump into their minds before they see the flop and i bet they are not as arrogant as they come off as...especially when they know they are bluffing!!! I met Chris when i was attending the WSOP and even before he made it to the final table he was very nice and friendly and we spoke briefly about how exciting this was just to be attending and seeing all the atmosphere behind the biggest event in poker history...i just think it's a double standard when you have an amateur vs. "professional"



[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be picky, but raising Humberto all-in with pocket 8's when Humberto had Pocket Aces was a good play (with two kings on the board)? I don't think so. Not to be picky, but that wasn't a good play in anyone's book.

To be fair, as I've said before, everyone at that Final Table probaby had at least 4-5 hands like that, but don't act like he played "perfect" b/c he didn't.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
88 vs. AA and QQQ vs 999QQ.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL, you call that chasing draws? You know better than that. First hand, 88 v Humberto's AA, was a stone cold bluff or at least he felt he had the best hand at the time. That's not chasing a draw, so re-state yourself. As you can see above, it was not a good play, but it wasn't chasing.

The other hand vs Ivey, wouldn't you have done the same? Who wouldn't?

[Schneids]

What I find kind of ironic is that nobody seems to notice or care that Ivey caught a two-outer, himself.

Considering that PF Moneymaker was against TT and 99, aren't AQ and TT standing to be longterm +EV while 99 is standing to be longterm -EV.

So what we have then is one +EV hand sucking out on a larger +EV hand on the flop, then the largest -EV hand sucking out on Moneymaker on the turn, then Moneymaker catching on the river against one of the most-aggressive players in the field. Would any of us have honestly done anything differently? Hell no.

Why doesn't anyone ever cite that Ivey went into the hand with the worst of it, called a bet with the worst of it, then managed to get a lucky turn, himself?

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
i think all this talk about non-sportsmanlike behavior is bullshite. you should be able to pump your fists in the air.. just like in basketball or baseball.. what is wrong with it? it's not rubbing it into someone elses face, it's just a personal celebration.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. A NL tourney is an emotional event, especially with $2,500,000 going to the winner. Who wouldn't celebrate? Lots do it. Phil Hellmuth did when he won it in 1989. Amir Vahedi did when he caught an 8 on the river to double through Olaf Thorson. People love to think that they'd "celebrate internally" but I doubt that would actually be the case if they outlasted 750+ players to make it to Day Four.

[krazyace5]

Exactly, Scotty Nguyen bluffed his whole WSOP tourny on something like 92os? He was going wild after he made the other guy(robert varkonyi?) fold, flashing his cards to everyone and gloating. I guess that is ok though cause he is a pro.

[theBruiser500]

The thing about Scotty Nguyen is that when he celebrates after winning a big hand, I get the feeling that he's joking around and this is an important distinction I'm drawing. When I'm playing live poker (which hasn't been forever), if someone wins a big pot against me and jokes aroudn about it maybe says something funny I don't care, I'll probably laugh with him. If they beat me and then start celebrating for themselves, that pisses me off.

Also, let's not forget how cool Nguyen is. His accent is great and he says funny things like, "8 3, oh [censored], I thought this was blackjack" or "you call me baby, gonna be all over."

danny

[jwvdcw]

The difference is that you usually celebrate in basketball after you make a good play, not after getting lucky.

A more accurate analogy imo would be celebrating a bad referee call in another sport...in other words, celebrating winning something when you shouldn't have.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, Scotty Nguyen bluffed his whole WSOP tourny on something like 92os? He was going wild after he made the other guy(robert varkonyi?) fold, flashing his cards to everyone and gloating. I guess that is ok though cause he is a pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was 83o and the opponent was Humberto Brenes. Scotty openraised from the cutoff, Brenes reraised on the button and Nguyen made it 100K more when it came back to him. He didn't risk his whole stack.

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is that you usually celebrate in basketball after you make a good play, not after getting lucky.

A more accurate analogy imo would be celebrating a bad referee call in another sport...in other words, celebrating winning something when you shouldn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually i think it compares more to throwing the basketball from half court to win the world championship and going nuts. noone says man what jerks they got lucky and now they think they are it just because they won the nba title.

[richie]

[ QUOTE ]

It wasn't just at the final table, mind you. He did it everytime he won a big hand. Have you seen former world champions act like that when they won, or even when they won big hands - no.



[/ QUOTE ]

For myself, that's an important distinction. Chris was not a professional player. This was Chris' first live tourney, and it was the WSOP, $2.5 million for first place. Won a seat for $40, my understanding was he didn't even want to go, would've rather have had the $10,000. Hell, I'd be whooping it up a lot myself, how could you not. Now, if he continues to act that way after placing in a few tournies, I would agree that it's over the top. But not as an amateur in your first tourney.

[CrackerZack]

MM was reserved compared to the mess that Mohammed was on tonight's WPT. I spent the whole time just waiting for Hoyt to eliminate him and dissapoint the "poker crew".

wow.

[Nottom]

I agree, anyone who didn't like MMs celebratory antics should have been disgusted by Mo and his "Poker Crew".

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, anyone who didn't like MMs celebratory antics should have been disgusted by Mo and his "Poker Crew".

[/ QUOTE ]

I was completely disgusted, he was like a little kid. Made me want to throw up, I hate their guts.

danny

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I was completely disgusted, he was like a little kid. Made me want to throw up, I hate their guts.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the problem with these forums: too many wishy-washy, non-committal types like you.

[krazyace5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, Scotty Nguyen bluffed his whole WSOP tourny on something like 92os? He was going wild after he made the other guy(robert varkonyi?) fold, flashing his cards to everyone and gloating. I guess that is ok though cause he is a pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was 83o and the opponent was Humberto Brenes. Scotty openraised from the cutoff, Brenes reraised on the button and Nguyen made it 100K more when it came back to him. He didn't risk his whole stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in his own words he said he risked his tourny on that hand.

[Daliman]

watch Amir Vahedi

[Daliman]

how can you be so clueless?

[Daliman]

"read him wrong?" you think he read him for worse than 5 hi? He has a flush draw, and wass getting about 2.5-1 from the pot and losing the pot wouldn't have cripled him, so he callled, plain ans simple. Right play.

[Daliman]

noone's saying he player "perfect". It's easy to say MM's 88 RR of Brenes was bad knowing he had AA but it was ab ad play? Lemme ask you something; If brenes has 99, TT, JJ, or QQ, all hands that are CRUSHING 88 at the time, do you think brenes calls. Even a middling King brenes is folding. the ONLY hands brenes calls with there are a set(99 may have given him one on flop, not sure...) MAYBE KJ or better, or AA. THerefore, since a strong % of hands Brenes could have would definitely fold there, MM made a good, strong play. Note: this is not necessarily the RIGHT play, but you kinda gotta know the other players cards for that usually. Also, MM was using his stack as a weapon, as ALL strong tourney players do.

[Daliman]

well said. Iforgot about the TT behind. Ivey was WAY behind.

[Daliman]

are the ive games you play tourney or ring? there's a BIG difference in winning a limit pot and a big tourney pot. I'd be pissed if someone did it in ring, but in tournwy, as long as the guy isn't acting like he made some great play and just seems to be happy he won, that's cool w/ me. Contrast this w/ AMir Vahedi's (non-major) suckout vs. Thorsen late in WSOP; " YOU GOTTA HAVE BALLS!". Great player, but a classless move. was happy to see Farha pants him later.