An ugly hand or not?

[Guido]

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls. Oops /images/graemlins/grin.gif

River: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 10.50 BB, won by BB.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by BB.</font>

[Trix]

I muck on the flop.

[Guido]

Because?

I have two overcards, a backdoor flushdraw and a backdoor straight draw. I get 7 to 1...

Do say I disagree with you but I would like to know why...

Guido

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I might have raised the flop with my overcards and backdoor draws... either that or muck.

On the turn, I think BB sensed your draw and 3bet you. I think calling is a better play because its either lose 2 BBs (or gasp, 3) on the turn and fold the river if you miss or lose just 1 BB on the turn and fold the river if you miss. On the other hand if you did hit your river, it's gain 1 BB on the turn and maybe 2 more BB's on the river for a total of 3BB. If you did it your way and won, he may have been the one folding the river, netting you only 2 BB.
Oops. Well actually since he 3bet you, he'd likely bet the river regardless right? So it might have won you 3 BB on the turn and 2 on the river! Ahh.. damn river not helping you.
So the way I see it:
calling the turn: either lose 1 BB or win 3BB.
Raising the turn: either lose 3 BB or win 5BB.
But if you wasn't re-raised:
Raising the turn: either lose 2 BB or win 2BB, if you're lucky 3BB.
So I think calling would have been better.
But yea I could be all wrong here. It's super late and I'm just rambling. Somebody fix my logic!

Its about minimizing losses and maximizing wins. Of course this would be a moot point if you won right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sthief09]

Maybe this is wrong, but I'd muck before the flop. Worst suited ace I call with after only 1 caller is ATs.

On the flop, you have:
1. a crappy ace with rags on the board. not only might your ace be outkicked, someone might have A2, A6, or A5
2. a fantastic 22-1 backdoor nut flush draw, and non-nut backdoor straight draw.
3. a 9, that if you hit, you'll likely be ahead with on the turn (unless you are against 67). That leaves only 4 overcards that can beat you.

So basically you have 2 crappy overcards, a non-nut backdoor draw, and a backdoor nut flush draw. All this for a $14 pot (at the time).

[ZAC]

Although I do not subscribe to the general belief by even some of the well-respected posters in this forum of playing any AX suited in a not too uncommon LL, passive game, folding A9s pre-flop is too tight IMHO. For one thing, LL games are populated with any ace players and, with A9s there are 5 overcards that can beat it and 7 that it would beat if an A flops. Also, someone holding AA, AK, AQ would probably have raised PF. Raising PF is an option especially closer to the button. I would be limping with A9s in this situation and play accordingly after the flop.

[lostinthought]

I kind of like your turn raise because if you hit on the river, you squeeze an extra bet out of him. BB has to be worried about you having a king also (of course which you don't). He might check the river, and you can check it down if you don't hit, or bluff. Of course, your plan backfired and the BB either has a great hand, or is super aggresive with an ok hand.
I would be tempted to pay him off on the river just to see what he has, out of curiousity although it's not good to routinely call people down in these spots, unless they're habitual bluffers and you have more of the board.

yeah, the hand is ugly, but you can't avoid it sometimes.

[lostinthought]

What limits do you play? If you are playing in a loose passive game (esp. low limit), I don't think Axs is that bad (depending on callers/position) of a hand as long as you know when to let it go.

I think Sklansky in HEPFAP even goes so far as to say that if you are in a loose passive game with a lot of callers, that you should raise on the button with Axs, so if you do hit the flush or flush draw, there will be a pot large enough to entice others to incorrectly stay in.

Sorry, my point is that, Axs (where x&lt;10) shouldn't be an automuck everytime. There are places where these hands can be profitable.

[sthief09]

No, I'm pretty sure Sklansky never, ever, ever said to raise Axs under the gun. That is absolutely ridiculous. You are out of position with a terrible kicker. That just doesn't make any sense.

To each his own. Depending on how loose and passive the game is, calling or folding with this hand probably doesn't make much of a difference one way or another. However, they do write this in HEFAP: "Playing too many hands up front is one of the most costly errors that you can make." Given that, I'll usually fold borderline cases.

It should also be noted that A9s is in group 5 with Axs, meaning that the authors essentially believe that A9 = Ace-rag.

The highest limit I play is 3/6, so I'm not referring to my own 4000/8000 experiences where I've folded A9s under the gun. Now that I look at HEFAP, they say that you CAN play group 5 hands "especially the suited connectors" up front in very loose and very passive games. So you may be right, but I don't like assuming I'm going to get 6 callers and no raise. The game would have to be perfect for that type of situation.

[Carlos]

I think the main problem with the turn raise is that it's kind of difficult for you to have a king once you limped in MP after one MP limper. That pretty much leaves sets as the only legitemate raising hands and sets are hard to come by. So an observant SB could put you on two spades and be tempted to play back at you.

On the other hand the ace do have showdown value against SB and you could have up to 15 outs if he's not on a draw. So maybe it is a good play against some opponents.

Carlos

[Guido]

He was talking about raising when you have the button...

[Guido]

A lot of people limp with a K, personally I don't but I don't think anybody ever notices...

Guido

[Guido]

sometimes I limp with KTs or KQo so it's not impossible to have a K. Don't really understand why I couldn't have a K... I couldn't have Kxo or something like that, that's true /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sthief09]

Well I am a moron then... mixed up the two posts about Axs. Yeah, raising the button with (key word ---&gt;) LOTS of callers is good "on occasion." However, this is the complete opposite. The poster has only 1 caller in front of him, and almost certainly won't achieve the needed implied odds to make limping with this hand profitable.

Either way, with 1 caller behind you in MP, you aren't guaranteed enough callers for this hand to be profitable. That's why I said muck it.

[Trix]

You cant be sure that your nine and ace are outs. If you knew their cards and knew that they were outs, then yes, its a call, but you dont and your reversed implied odds are high.
The bet is from BB, he checked preflop, he can have any two cards. If he has 62,52,65,22,55,66,96,A6,A5,34,78,AT,AJ you are in bad shape.
I like the turn raise though if he is cabable of folding.

[Homer]

Preflop - I might raise to isolate if CO and button are tight players. I'd never fold.

Flop - Fold. You're getting 7:1, which isn't enough to draw at your overcards and backdoor flush. If your outs are clean, you're around 5.5:1 against getting there, but they won't be completely clean. You could be reverse dominated such that an Ace gives someone two-pair, and a 9 completes an OESD for someone with 87. Lastly, you are not closing the action, so there is a chance someone will raise and you'll have to pay two or more bets to see the turn card.

Turn - FPS at this limit, unless you have a super read on BB that makes you think he'll lay down a 6 or 5. The day I stopped semi-bluffing in these games is the day my win rate skyrocketed.

-- Homer

[Homer]

A 9 is not an x.

-- Homer

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the main problem with the turn raise is that it's kind of difficult for you to have a king once you limped in MP after one MP limper. That pretty much leaves sets as the only legitemate raising hands and sets are hard to come by. So an observant SB could put you on two spades and be tempted to play back at you.

On the other hand the ace do have showdown value against SB and you could have up to 15 outs if he's not on a draw. So maybe it is a good play against some opponents.

Carlos

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably limp with KQo, KJs, or KTs in this preflop situation. Sure, anything like AKs,AK,KK, and KQs are almost automatic raises, but there are possible K hands that would limp in this situation. So I don't see how that is a problem.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop - I might raise to isolate if CO and button are tight players. I'd never fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand why you might want to raise, but I just can't understand how you can justify limping. Calling is likely to get 3 or 4 callers, which it did. Isn't this a bad situation for A9s? What am I missing here?

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn - FPS at this limit, unless you have a super read on BB that makes you think he'll lay down a 6 or 5. The day I stopped semi-bluffing in these games is the day my win rate skyrocketed.

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember when I first started playing 5/10, trying to make the transition from 2/4 and 3/6. I was re-reading HEPFAP and so all the semi-bluffing examples were on my mind. I was amazed at how it worked.
I hover in between those limits (2/4 to 5/10) and I have to constantly adjust my semibluffing frequency.

[Carlos]

In this position I would eiter raise or fold with any king. Nobody seems to agree so perhaps it's time to reexamin my preflop play.

Carlos

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
raise on the button with Axs

[/ QUOTE ]

Haupt_234