Falling right into my weak, loose opponent's trap

[Brian]

Party 3/6. I am new to the table but have a note on the player in question in this hand as I have played with him before. The note reads:

Any Ace player.
Calls down with any pair.
Very loose.

In other words, your typical Party 3/6 player. He was the Button in this hand. On to the hand.

I am in the CO and dealt A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG and MP limp, I limp, and the Button comes along. SB completes and BB checks. 6 to the Flop, 6sb.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to me and I bet. Button calls, SB calls, everyone else folds. 3 to the Turn, 9sb (4.5bb).

Turn: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me and I bet. Button and SB call. 3 to the River, 7.5bb.

River: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to me and I bet. Button raises, SB folds, I call. Results later.

-Brian

[Trix]

I´m mucking or raising preflop.

There isnt any draws on the board, you get 2 callers on both the flop and turn.
Check behind on the river, you wont be ahead often enough when called.

[sthief09]

If they are so loose, why are you betting the flop with nothing? It's not like they are going to fold, and there's not much of a reason to think you are ahead.

[Brian]

Hi stheif09,

Everyone checked to a non pre-Flop raiser and the board is paired. Ace-high is the best hand here often enough to warrant a bet.

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi Trix,

[ QUOTE ]
I´m mucking or raising preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you feel this way. I do not believe this is a raise-or-fold situation at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Check behind on the river, you wont be ahead often enough when called.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the River, I figured I would have heard from an 8 by now, and a Queen will probably bet if I check. So I think it's a value bet, especially given that my read on the Button is that he'd call down with any pair.

-Brian

[Joe Tall]

I would have played it the same way from top to bottom. Surely I bet this board when checked to on the flop and easily on the turn. Value bet the river and call versus this opponent, yes.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Brian]

He has T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the Full House.

-Brian

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi stheif09,
Everyone checked to a non pre-Flop raiser and the board is paired. Ace-high is the best hand here often enough to warrant a bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised that you assume this, especially with five other players who came along in a unraised, preflop pot. On a flop like this, I'ld assume that any 8x is going to wait at least until the turn to speak up, whereas a passive Qx may only checkcall the entire way. In addition, I wish I had a quarter for all the hands in which I've played where a passive player checkcalled all of the way down with a pocket pair on a paired board.

In other words, I don't know if I agree that your ATo will be the best hand here enough times to warrant a value bet on the flop.

P.S. I would have mucked this preflop.

[sthief09]

Joe

You are probably going to call me an idiot for even asking this, but I'm going to ask anyway, because if I don't ask dumb questions I'll never learn.

In a situation like this, where he is checked to on the flop against 5 other people, if he figures to be ahead, is it always correct to bet? Is there a possible situation that exists where someone can be ahead on the flop in a 6-way pot but win less than 1/6 of the time? I'm assuming there are such situations.

And do you advocate betting because you know any Q HAS to bet the flop, meaning you aren't against a flop? The reason I was thinking that a flop bet was bad is because I figured he was against at least another ace (1 less out), and likely a pocket pair. I understand that this is a passive play, but if you bet the flop, I feel like you will get a lot of callers with an essentially undrawable hand, making post-flop play very difficult.

[Festus22]

I am curious why you didn't raise this preflop after only 2 limpers.

A) It buys you the button,
B) It should fold the blinds,
C) If an ace flops, there only roughly a 10% chance that someone has AQ or AJ. I would assume you would have heard from an AK preflop (or even AQ for that matter).

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious why you didn't raise this preflop after only 2 limpers.

A) It buys you the button,
B) It should fold the blinds,
C) If an ace flops, there only roughly a 10% chance that someone has AQ or AJ. I would assume you would have heard from an AK preflop (or even AQ for that matter).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if we're talking about the same Party Poker, but the players at the Party Poker I know aren't 100% folding if I raise form the cutoff.

AT is a crappy hand. You have 3 outs to hit an ace, and even when you do, your kicker sucks. I don't think I'd ever raise with it in a low limit game unless it was an open-raise in the cutoff..

[Festus22]

I agree that Party has a lot of cold callers but I think to maximize your chances of winning with this hand, you need to thin the field. It's tough to do that limping. And by thinning the field and hopefully a few overcards in the process, you give your 10 a better chance to hold up as top pair if one flops.

Regarding the 10 as a sucky kicker, it's the best 9 times out of 10 with an ace flop assuming an A-K isn't out there. And given 2 limpers to me, I think I'm pretty safe with that assumption.

With more limpers, I'd probably limp as well or even fold. But with 2, I see A-10o as a raising hand in the last two positions.

[sthief09]

S&M don't even recommend calling this hand, or raising AJo, let alone raising ATo in this situation.

I'm far from an expert and I'd like to see what the better players say about this. But the good of the ace for ATo is more than offset by the fact that you're unable to fully maximize profit (because you don't have top pair, good kicker), and that when you do hit, you will lose a good deal of the time.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
meaning you aren't against a flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

queen, not flop... looking over that post, I don't think it made much sense. I'm just kind of confused as to why it's correct to be ace-mediocre in this situation

[Joe Tall]

You are probably going to call me an idiot for even asking this, but I'm going to ask anyway, because if I don't ask dumb questions I'll never learn.

There are no stupid questions. I ask questions all the time and I'll continue to do so until I understand; bringing me up to yet another level. If you don't ask or get your panties in a bent, you'll never survive or grow in anything, especially poker.

I feel like you will get a lot of callers with an essentially undrawable hand,

Let's look at this from the view of your opponents. What 'drawable' hands exsist on a Q88 board?
Not many.

Everyone checks to you and you bet:

1. You could have the best hand and have a reasonable chance to improve versus a small pocket pair.

2. You have a big opportunity to take down this pot with a board as it is unlikely that anyone has an 8. I surely have taken down pots on a flop like this when checked to in LP with such a holding.

3. You can make adjustments via the reactions of you opponents. I've bet a board like this, the button raised, MP cold-called and I folded.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[lil']

Any sucky player can check-raise with a full house. What are you gonna do? I'd have bet all three streets as well.

I would raise pre-flop against two weak limpers.

[Joe Tall]

I do not raise ATo after 2 limpers. After 1 limper, yes. ATs, totally different story.

The more limpers, the more ATo sucks. I fold it in multiway pots.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Brian]

Hi Festus,

[ QUOTE ]
A) It buys you the button,

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't.

[ QUOTE ]
B) It should fold the blinds,

[/ QUOTE ]

No it won't.

[ QUOTE ]
C) If an ace flops, there only roughly a 10% chance that someone has AQ or AJ. I would assume you would have heard from an AK preflop (or even AQ for that matter).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how this is relevent to whether or not I raise pre-Flop. I'm not not raising because I fear AQ or AJ; I am not raising because it will likely leave me without the Button in a large multi-way pot with a clunky unsuited hand. I don't think raising is necessarily wrong here, because it is better than folding. But I think that limping is the best option. Change the Button to a Clarkmeister and the Blinds to some 2+2'ers, and I'll raise every time. I want them out of my pot. That raise will buy the Button, and will usually get some dead blind money into the pot. Also, I'd prefer to not have people who know what they are doing in my pot, especially when my hand ain't all that great.

-Brian