Pokerstars $30-$60 hand

[UMTerp]

Full 10-person table, a few are sitting out, it's maybe 8-handed. I pick up T /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG and open-raise.

Folded around to the big blind, who calls. BB is a regular player, pretty good, usually plays 3 tables at once, and defends his blinds pretty liberally, especially heads up.

Flop T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Nice!!

I check, he checks behind me.

Turn is the 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Possible flush. I check again, he bets, I check-raise, he calls.

River 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Ugh. I check, he bets, and I make the crying call. He turns over 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for two-pair, and I take down a decent-sized pot.

In hindsight, I think I should've led out on the turn, though by not doing so, I may have picked up an extra big bet or two. My question is about my opponent's play. Like I said, he's a good player. WTF was he thinking? Did he make a mistake on every street here? Do you like his river bet? I'd imagine there's much more potential to lose two bets than gain one here. Opinions?

[astroglide]

how do you checkraise the big blind when you're under the gun?

[UMTerp]

Thanks, astroglide. I corrected the action. My main question was about the river. Do you like the fact that he led out? I absolutely have to call, right?

[astroglide]

none of it makes sense. if he's in the big blind, he acts before you on every round.

[UMTerp]

*Sigh*

I thought I edited it, but I must not have clicked "Change Post". Oh well. I'll just let this sink to the bottom of the page now...

What really happened:

Flop - He checks, I check.
Turn - He bets, I raise, he calls.
River - He bets, I call.

[astroglide]

not a big fan of the flop check / turn raise combo because it will typically force out a lot of hands that may call the flop and turn if you simply keep firing. the pokerstars 30/60 plays very sane (read: not good games to play in) from what i've observed. as for his river bet, i do like it if he could fold to a raise (but i doubt HE would). his turn call was obviously atrocious.

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
his turn call was obviously atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's for sure. I 'm not sure if your play on the flop makes alot of sense to me. You open raised, yes? And you're HU? You're on a strong hand (given your PF action) and I would hope this moron knows it. You got a ragged flop. A check to me says trips and a trap because I would never believe that all of sudden you have a weak hand after you open raised UTG. To me it's a fluke that you got the action that you did from this guy.

I see no reason whatsoever to slow play here. I think it's fortunate that you were up against such a poor player for you to have made the money you did.

BTW, why the hell are you tempting fate with flush draw on the board. Get your freaking money in the pot and get to the next hand.

[UMTerp]

"BTW, why the hell are you tempting fate with flush draw on the board. Get your freaking money in the pot and get to the next hand."

Where was I "tempting fate"? You wouldn't have raised the turn? I certainly slowed down on the river.

I don't know about the flop. I hate to lose an opponent heads up before any chips are in when I'm holding a monster. I certainly don't slowplay trips every time in this situation, but heads-up, I'll check it more often than not. This is a mistake?

[astroglide]

when i flop a monster i try to do whatever is the most deceptive. checking it usually throws a red flag to higher-limit players. you're usually going to check to get a 6-outer (pairless hand) to catch and pay off. many people will call you with that anyway, and pairs almost certainly will (at a minimum).

[mikelow]

Anyone for another check-raise on the river? Actually, I would have bet the flop and turn, and check-called the river.

If raised on the turn, you can three-bet.

[astroglide]

he can't checkraise. he's utg, and his opponent is the bb.

[sweetzer]

Flopping top set brings up an interesting question: you've raised utg, have only one caller, and now you check a ten high flop. Doesn't that look a bit suspicious, especially at the 30-60 level. I usually bet out in this situation and represent overcards. Would love comments.

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
Flopping top set brings up an interesting question: you've raised utg, have only one caller, and now you check a ten high flop. Doesn't that look a bit suspicious, especially at the 30-60 level. I usually bet out in this situation and represent overcards. Would love comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I mean, if you open raise out of position and then check a weak flop against one opponent.., makes no sense. There's nothing deceptive in this play here because I think most people would expect a bet after representing strength pre-flop.

[webiggy]

Maybe I'm missing something, but you're tempting fate on the flop because there are two flush cards and a less scary open ended gut shot on the board. Flopping a set is a very strong hand, but you gave your opponent an opportunity to draw out on you for free on the flop. Where would you have been had your opponent had two diamonds in his hand.

Perhaps you had a good read on him in that he didn't have diamonds, but there were enough possibilities for your opponent to draw out on you to be dangerous to your hand. Read the Guru's chapter on slow playing and memorize the criteria required for the proper times to slow play a hand.

Not to beat a dead horse, but showing strength, then feigning weakness is character illogic. I can see slow playing had you limped in with a pocket pair in any position and then flopped a set, but not open raising and then slow-playing against one opponent.

[daryn]

bet that flop! next!

[astroglide]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold 'Em (10 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO raises, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.83 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls.

River: (13.83 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.83 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Th Ad (four of a kind, aces).
CO shows Qc Qd (full house, aces full of queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.83 BB. </font>

Party Poker 15/30 Hold 'Em (10 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO caps, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, CO folds, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 6d 6s (four of a kind, sixes).
UTG shows Ah 8c (straight, nine high).
Outcome: Hero wins 24 BB. </font>

Party Poker 15/30 Hold 'Em (9 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO 3-bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero caps, CO calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (7.83 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (9.83 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.83 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Qs Qc (four of a kind, queens).
CO shows Ad Kh (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.83 BB. </font>

that's all from this evening. as you can see, i don't mind fastplaying trips/quads.

[daryn]

oh my .. i'm still shivering from you cold calling 3 bets out of the big blind with 66

[webiggy]

yes, astroglide - you da man!

[astroglide]

i'm surprised nobody's freaking out over me having quads 3 times in one night yet heh

[UMTerp]

Astro,

I'll rarely if ever slowplay a monster in a multiway pot, which all of yours were. Heads up is a different story in my opinion. I'm trying to win more than a couple small bets when I have a huge hand. In the hand I posted, I almost got burned, since the 4 diamonds came. Though if I'd have bet the flop, I may have won a drastically smaller pot - we'll never know.

I would've fired the same way you did in each of your hands. 24BB - nice pot!!

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Full 10-person table, a few are sitting out, it's maybe 8-handed. I pick up T /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG and open-raise.

Folded around to the big blind, who calls. BB is a regular player, pretty good, usually plays 3 tables at once, and defends his blinds pretty liberally, especially heads up.

Flop T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Nice!!

I check, he checks behind me.

Turn is the 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Possible flush. I check again, he bets, I check-raise, he calls.

River 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Ugh. I check, he bets, and I make the crying call. He turns over 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for two-pair, and I take down a decent-sized pot.

In hindsight, I think I should've led out on the turn, though by not doing so, I may have picked up an extra big bet or two. My question is about my opponent's play. Like I said, he's a good player. WTF was he thinking? Did he make a mistake on every street here? Do you like his river bet? I'd imagine there's much more potential to lose two bets than gain one here. Opinions?



[/ QUOTE ]

No reason to check this flop. You have the option of firing out $30 and him thinking you have anything from a complete miss to a mediocre pair. You also have the option of saving $30 and tipping him off that you have aces, kings, or a set. Which sounds better to you?

Also, you said he's a good player yet he called a raise w/ 42o after an UTG player raised and then called your turn raise w/ nothing but a pair of 2s. You might want to rethink your opinion of him. There are a lot of instances where I see an otherwise bad player stumble into a very slick looking play, where my initial impression of this person is not at all accurate.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm surprised nobody's freaking out over me having quads 3 times in one night yet heh

[/ QUOTE ]

I flopped quad nines against the same raiser in my very first orbit at a table. I went nuts both times and got paid off by multiple players.

Managed to book a losing session afterwards, but imaginiing the WTF? from the guy that raised both hands made it all worthwhile /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[astroglide]

with 4 totally spastic opponents in a full 15 game i don't believe it's a mistake. you can already see that utg openraised with A8o, called 3 back, and called a 665 2tone flop which has a HIGH probability of being raised/reraised behind. the table was going nuts. i'm very surprised i didn't get raised on the flop.

[astroglide]

flopped quad nines twice in one orbit? confused about the 'same raiser' bit if that isn't what you meant.

[2005]

I made quads twice and 2 straight flushes in one day a few days ago... of course, that was PokerStars and we all know that their site is rigged, so I guess it doesn't count

Gavin

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
Astro,

I'll rarely if ever slowplay a monster in a multiway pot, which all of yours were. Heads up is a different story in my opinion. I'm trying to win more than a couple small bets when I have a huge hand. In the hand I posted, I almost got burned, since the 4 diamonds came.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've been thinking about this hand a bit, mostly 'cause it's being played at limit I've only watched and I have no life. I would say your play was either brilliant or wrong and am leaning towards the latter.

Let's pretend for a minute that BB was holding two diamonds and he played the same way on the flop. What would you expect from him had you bet - a fold? Probably not. I'm guessing he would probably c/r or possibly call one bet representing a flush draw, or even a higher pair or some other hand like a set or two pair that is difficult to read on this type of board. If this guy is a good player, this play would be very useful for him to get some additional information from you based on your response to his bet, while setting himself to bet appropriately when third and dreaded fourth diamonds come off. Also it would make you uneasy in his mind (not knowing you flopped a set) that he either has you beat already or is in postion to draw out on you. My feeling is that he probably put you on a high pair or AK and that you would be naturally afraid of the flush draw. Even with a set the flush is scary and you would be an underdog with a 7 outer on the turn and a 9 outer on the river.

So let's pretend that you bet out with trips in this situation and he does c/r on a bluff. Your bet did not cause him to fold, but rather it served to extract an extra BB from him, provided that you smooth call his bet. Having said that, a reraise from you might have said to him "I'm afraid of the flush" putting him a situation to bluff you off your hand when the diamond hit, so he might have even paid you more.

Since he was blufing and the flush hit and the rest of the hand played out, you very easily cost yourself at least one big bet if not two (given the possibility that capping the flop might have happened).

So the point is this. Had he actualy been on the flush draw, your flop play saved you money because you didn't fall into his C/R scheme, but you cost yourself money by raising his bet on the turn by betting into his made flush. On the otherhand, had you read his bluff properly, your flop play cost yourself money because he likely would have either raised or called on the flop for the reasons stated.

In any case, thanks for posting this hand this was a fun one to think about.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm surprised nobody's freaking out over me having quads 3 times in one night yet heh

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to post the almost requisite "It's easy to beat the game when you constantly make quads" but it seemed too easy. I'll try and think of something snappier.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
flopped quad nines twice in one orbit? confused about the 'same raiser' bit if that isn't what you meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just sat down, player x raises, I call, flop quad 9s, and win a big pot. A few hands later player x raises again, I call, flop quad 9s, and win a big pot.

It's one of the few times I've ever thought, well that was just ridiculous, those guys really didn't deserve that.