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View Full Version : On the cyclical nature of the quality of games. Party 15/30- long


DcifrThs
03-02-2004, 03:33 AM
since game seleciton (when possible, and on party 15/30 it is) is a large part of anybody's profits, the goal of this post is to start a discussion of how best to approach game selection when many games are available. What objective facts do we have to look at and to what degree should we be looking at them?

Further, how is the best way to go about estimating (what variables are the most probable determinants of) game quality with respect to the cyclical nature of a game.

clearly the value of the game to you (the general you) is the sum of the cost of the mistakes the poor players make (or poorer players make) minus the cost of your mistakes.

now taking that as our dependent variable, why does that value change so much (this is in reference to ONLINE poker games where turnover is very high) through short periods, or rather, how can we best use our superior knowledge of these determinants (if we're lucky enough to isolate and observe them...i want to know which are the most important ones so i can do that) to maximize our earn???

Most people would immediately look for the size of the pot on party since the %seeing flop is not available. i think everyone will agree that there is a striking positive correlation between the # of players on a given waiting list and the size of the average pot for that table. since most people look at that and join long wait lists, they are disapointed when their turn comes up and the game has totally died down.

but sometimes you can join that game and it will pick up quite rapidly...and sometimes it doesn't and you leave.

but what if picking a different average pot size could lead to a higher proportion of times you enter agame closer to its peak (max. value for our dependent variable above)?

this is just a thought, and is meant to trigger discussion but there might be some optimal average pot at which to join a game b/c that correlates with the factors that make a game good. obviously a very aggressive game with MASSIVE pots is not what would maximize our dependent variable because aggressive pots will make our mistakes more costly when we make them even though others are making many mistakes as well. and a too tight game doesn't provide anybody the opportunity to make many mistakes since they're not in many pots.

so i ask, at what point does entrance into a given game tend to maximize the dependent variable above?

By the way, serious thinking about this could yield great dividends for everybody and therefore i wish to state that all serious thought put into this and communicated will be sincerely appreciated.

thanks
-Barron

SoBeDude
03-02-2004, 12:34 PM
Its hard to guess when a table will be 'good' when its your turn to sit down. To counter this, get on a lot of lists that look promising, then evaluate the table once it's your turn to sit down.

Also there is a better indicator than pot size to use when finding a good table. A table where most hands are heads up preflop for 3 bets can make for big average pots, but not necessairly easy money.

Open the tables and look at the play. look for the players in every pot. Look for the ones calling raises with cheese.

Also some times you can find a 15 party table that's currently short-handed with a really bad player. When you can sit on his left and isolate all his weak limps the game will be profitable regardless of average pot size.

Also look for tables where several are limping preflop. Passive opponents who see too many flops are the easiest games around.

-Scott

Nate tha' Great
03-02-2004, 02:41 PM
It seems logical that there's an evolutionary element to this. There's probably a more or less constant influx of fishes; many of them are eaten, but so long as we're within the midst of the poker boom, there will be plenty of new ones on hand to replace them.

What I think varies is the number of sharks. A tender bit of prey can trigger a feeding frenzy of sorts, and before you know it, everybody is drunk with the smell of blood and winds up taking a nibble or two off one another. Sometimes it might be best to let the air clear a little bit before going in for your next meal.

I've noticed lately, for example, that the 10/20 6-max game at Party seems to have become tougher lately. I'm running poorly for the last several sessions there, and *feeling* as though my edge isn't quite as great as I'd like it to be, even though I'm doing fine in my other games. I wouldn't think too much of it except that a couple of other posters in the shorthanded forum have noted the same thing: that particular game seems tougher now than it did a month ago. So I might back away from it for a little bit, or only play it on weekends, and give it another go in a couple of weeks.

I think it's less likely that there's any this systematic going on with Party 15/30 full ring, since there are probably 4x as many tables ... that tends to even things out a bit. Which is not to suggest that table selection is unimportant.

Gosh, I'm babbling....

Buckshot
03-02-2004, 10:06 PM
Or just follow Sobedude around. That's what I do.

/images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~stephen

SoBeDude
03-03-2004, 02:47 AM
Thats really funny, seeing as you're the biggest donator to Actionbob's bankroll of everyone on Party.

-Scott

Buckshot
03-03-2004, 08:37 AM
Because I hear you're the biggest donator to EVERYONE'S bankroll.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif Touché?

~stephen

Mikey
03-03-2004, 09:48 AM

SoBeDude
03-03-2004, 10:04 AM
no not touche', because what I said was the truth.

Mike Gallo
03-03-2004, 05:36 PM
Thats really funny, seeing as you're the biggest donator to Actionbob's bankroll of everyone on Party.


I have seen both of these guys play, ActionBob and Buckshot. Neither appears to donate to the game.

Buckshot might donate when he tilts heavily /images/graemlins/crazy.gif, otherwise both play very solid poker.

Buckshot, do you plan on visiting AC this weekend for ATLARGE? I plan on playing Friday night against some of them at the Taj.

Imagine that /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Jeremy'sSpoken
03-03-2004, 08:30 PM
I have run several million hand simulations on WTTHE and interestingly enough the table with the highest EV for any starting hand was the table with the highest % seen flop but the lowest pot size. Im not sure why. while the % seen flop is not readily available at party, I've thought about doing some type of analysis of BB won per hand and EV which maybe could be used as part of a selection criteria at party.

Back the my safe home at the micro limit forum. see you again in about a year.

ActionBob
03-03-2004, 11:54 PM
I have seen both of these guys play, ActionBob and Buckshot. Neither appears to donate to the game.

It was a bit of an inside joke about Buckshot.

I recently started keeping stats on Pokertracker so after about 5000 hands, I figure I'll check out who is the biggest contributor to my bankroll.... Lo and behold, its Buckshot himself /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'll be at the Taj Thursday til Sunday. Hope to see you there.

-ActionBob

DcifrThs
03-04-2004, 11:58 AM
how did you know?? i actually am an economist but deal with only the statistical side of it as i am in the health care/pension coverage sector of govt (and i'm 23 lol...how many 23 year old 'economists' do you know...i don't have a phd or masters and hope to go to Wash U in st. louis next year so i don't know if i deserve my title ;-) )
-Barron

DcifrThs
03-04-2004, 12:02 PM
So do you guys use your handles on here so i can stay out of your games ;-)?? or do you use other names?
-Barron