40-80 Commerce hand

[Clarkmeister]

For Ed to help illustrate a point.

Soft 40-80. Not as crazy as most, but still great with 2 players seeing most flops and no real solid players in the game other than Andy Fox on my left and mike l., who is only playing solid when distracted from the game. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

UTG A2C limps, UTG+1 overaggressive preflop raiser raises, folded to me in the cutoff with the J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I make it 3-bets. Andy folds the button, A2C SB who thinks I am FoS calls, BB who is straightforward and bad calls, UTG and UTG+1 call. 5 to the flop for 7.5BBs.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB bets, BB raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 coldcalls, I coldcall. SB now 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, I call. 4 to the turn for 13.5BBs.

Turn: 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, I raise and mike l. almost spits out his Tequila Sunrise. All call. 4 to the river for 21.5BBs.

River: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Checked to me, I bet, SB and UTG call. My hand is obviously good.

And yes, this hand is in the right forum. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Joe Tall]

I understand and you didn't need the Jack on the river.

SB's jamming his flush draw, BB has a hand like A9o and you called the flop to see if the turn was going to kill your hand as it is vulnerable yet still good with the plan to raise a blank the turn giving you a better shot of winning this huge pot.

Great game selection, btw.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[LivingLegend58]

Why did you raise the turn? With so many in the pot didn't you think you were behind.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise the turn? With so many in the pot didn't you think you were behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Behind what? SB could possibly have 33, 66, or 99. Other than that, who/what could he be behind? Given the action, he's going to be in the lead on the turn the vast majority of the time here.

Edited to add: If I were in this hand, I would have had 78c and Clarky would have paid off like a slot machine when he hit his set on the river.

[BottlesOf]

With two clubs out there on the flop, that's balls. I like it. I'm assuming you figured anyone with 2 clubs was not folding to a 3-bet by you on the flop

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were in this hand, I would have had 78c

[/ QUOTE ]

No way you call 3-cold with 87s.

[Clarkmeister]

Joe,

I didn't do anything in this hand with the intention of maximizing my chances of winning.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were in this hand, I would have had 78c

[/ QUOTE ]

No way you call 3-cold with 87s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to belabor this point, so let me simply put it to you like this. Sometime in the near future, Clark and I will be in a 40-80 game, either in Vegas or in the Bay Area. A hand like this will go down. Clark will make his set on the river and be licking his chops and we will go like 400 bets. Then I will show him the nuts. It will be awesome. Trust me on this one.

[Clarkmeister]

"With two clubs out there on the flop, that's balls. I like it. I'm assuming you figured anyone with 2 clubs was not folding to a 3-bet by you on the flop "

Oh boy. I'll tackle this one later on tonight if no one else does.

[JTG51]

I'm assuming you figured anyone with 2 clubs was not folding to a 3-bet by you on the flop

Anyone with two clubs was not folding to a 30-bet on the flop.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise the turn? With so many in the pot didn't you think you were behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot think like this and do well in super loose low limit games.

[Ulysses]

When Clark and I play this hand, at about the 300th bet on the river, Clark will look at his hand and look at the board. He will then say to himself, no way he called 3-cold pre-flop w/ 78. He has 99. And then we will go another 100 bets. At right about 400 bets, he will think to himself, damn I guess he did call 3-cold pre-flop w/ 78. Seriously, trust me on this one. It will be awesome.

[JTG51]

Clark will make his set on the river and be licking his chops and we will go like 400 bets.

Ah, so that's why you like the 500 big bet buy in!

[Mike Gallo]

Oh boy. I'll tackle this one later on tonight if no one else does.

I'm assuming you figured anyone with 2 clubs was not folding to a 3-bet by you on the flop " He doesnt want anyone with 2 clubs to fold. He knows they will not fold and he bets and raises accordingly.

[Joe Tall]

I didn't do anything in this hand with the intention of maximizing my chances of winning.

Then you raised the turn 100% for value? It doesn't increase you chances of winning? It has to, even slightly, but it still has to.

ADDED: Unless I'm way out in right field and I'm going to get bitch-slapped again. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

Why would he not want one to fold? We want to win the pot. Knocking out a flush draw/charging flush draw seems a good way to further this.

Let's say we cold call the flop here. How do you play if a club turns and there's one bet to you? two?


Are we waiting until the turn to 1) make sure a bad card doesn't fall 2) trying to make a "bigger" raise? Is this going to knock players out? If not, why not raise the flop since they're coming along anyway, let's get the most money on every street, while we have the best hand.


It's been banged into my head that more often than not, tight, aggressive, straightforward poker is best in LL games. If we are to treat this hand as an LL hand, as the poster has said, why is this situation different? We have the best hand, punish them by making them pay.

If we are only calling b/c our hand is vulnerable, that just seems like we're playing a little scared. Trying to minimize our possible losses rather than maximize our posssible wins. However, maybe that's what this situation calls for

[AceHigh]

LMAO. If you can get 400BB on the river, it's a good call. Course you can only make that play once, then the Clarkmeister will be onto you.

[blackaces13]

Ok, I'm a green 3/6 player and thats why I read this forum. Now we have a bunch of cryptic talk about a 40/80 hand where experts can't even figure out other expert's motives and no one is talking.

Can we cut the chase now and dumb this thing down so that average readers such as myself can gain some insight here? Someone responding to Bottlesof's post would be nice. This thread is making me feel stupid and left out, I had enough of that in High School /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[BottlesOf]

haha, i feel your pain. I think i may have sorted it out. I have edited my question a few times, see if by reading it again that helps.

My understanding is your clearly ahead on the flop. These guys have something, but you're definitely ahead. You're a little concerned about a club or overcards. By waiting until a safe card falls on the turn, you are maximizing the chance that you win a big pot AND do not needlessly lose a lot of your chips. 3-betting the flop would cut down your action later on, and there's a chance that the turn puts you in a bad spot, regardless.

Am I getting this....?

Also, why does the girl NEVER choose the Average Joe?

[asdf1234]

I guess the question is, is Clark good enough to 399 bet you, but fold to a 400 bet?

[ZeeJustin]

If I've learned anything from the Mid-High Stakes forum it's that Clark will put in the 399th bet, you will put in the 400th, and Clark will realize that you have 87 and lay his hand down. You should just cold-call that 399th bet so you get a chance to show him the nuts.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the question is, is Clark good enough to 399 bet you, but fold to a 400 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Arggggggg. You beat me to it by 3 minutes. Damn you!

[JTG51]

I'm no expert, but I'll take a shot at clearing up what the experts are talking about for you.

I'm guessing your main confusion comes from Clarkmeister waiting till the turn to raise. There are several reasons. First, forget about knocking people out to increase his chances of winning. It's not going to happen. Everyone left in the hand has already called bets. No one is going to call two bets then fold for a third.

So waiting till the turn lets Clarkmeister lose the least if something really terrible comes off on the turn and win the most when he's still confident he's ahead.

Everyone that is worried about 'charging the draws' on the flop, remember he can charge them a much, much steeper price on the turn since the bet doubles and they only have one card to come instead of two.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If not, why not raise the flop since they're coming along anyway, let's get the most money on every street, while we have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB is the aggressor. If Clark 4-bets, he's likely to get checked to on the turn and get zero or one BB each from hands that are behind him. If he just calls the 3-bet, SB is likely to lead again on an innocent-looking card and Clark can get two big bets from each of these guys. If the card is something really ugly like Ac and there's a lot of action in front of him, Clark can choose to get out of the way. So, this lets him win the maximum the times he's likely to be ahead on the turn and lose the minimum the times he's behind.

[ QUOTE ]
If we are only calling b/c our hand is vulnerable, that just seems like we're playing a little scared. Trying to minimize our possible losses rather than maximize our posssible wins. However, maybe that's what this situation calls for

[/ QUOTE ]

I do read a lot of posts where people are doing things so they lose the minimum when they get beaten - ie: save bets. That is rarely right by itself. But it's great when part of a line that wins you the maximum and the potential saved bets are just a nice side effect.

Edited to add: Of course, JTG51 writes this all one minute before me. I copy fast.

[Trix]

And the sad part is that Clark did the rare preflop 3Bet with 87s for deception and it will go 500 bets before you realize that you are feeding the rake.

[Trix]

You might wanna read this: majorkongs charging the flushdraws (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=463571&Forum= All_Forums&Words=charge%20the%20draws&Match=Entire %20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=4 63571&Search=true#Post463571)

If still confused, then there is something about big pots in HFAP too.

[JTG51]

...and it will go 500 bets before you realize that you are feeding the rake.

Nah, the rake will probably be capped at around the 200th bet. The last 300 won't cost them anything.

[blackaces13]

Ok, I see it now. Me, I'd have the gloves of on the flop but I play mainly 1/2 on party or 3/6 at the Borgata. Is this play still correct against the highly illogical players at these levels. I'm guessing it may be on the flop but not raising the turn because you are likely beaten by a 2-pair or straight against unpredictable opponents. So the call on the flop may be right (though I'd still probably 3-bet), but not the raise on the turn. Does this make sense?

[Mike Gallo]

Chris,

Your getting it now.

[bisonbison]

What about the gift tax on the sidebets one of them will have to make when they reach felt? Damn table stakes, ruining everything.

[BottlesOf]

Thanks for the re-enforcement. Between this thread and GOT's TT, there has been some All-star poker discussion tonite. A great day for SS!

[BottlesOf]

Thanks for the link. The AJ and JT7 example was especially enlightening. However, against only one or 2 opponents, I think a flop raise may be more appropriate. What do you think?

[Trix]

Lets say the blinds had folded to your raise, so the pot is only 7 SBs. First limper bets, second limper call. I would probably raise here too, the pot is smaller and with fewer opponents, the chance that your are against a better hand is smaller.
By raising, they would get 5.5:1 each meaning that they would make a mistake if they had less than 7 outs. Also, I wouln´t be sure that they would bet again on the turn if they held a worse hand so pushed the edge when you have it seems like the best play.

[Aaron Lovi]

I think this is bad. If you're thinking of getting away from this hand, you should do it on the flop. If not, you should cap the flop and put on the blinders later. So I think you should cap the flop.

For instance, if you had red 99 and the flop were 8c6c3d, you should fold the flop instead.

[Clarkmeister]

"I think this is bad. If you're thinking of getting away from this hand"

I never had any intentions of getting away from my hand. I loved it from start to finish.

I'm tired and going to bed, but I promise to get to this thread tomorrow. And to those trying to distinguish between 40-80 and 1-2, I would play it exactly the same way in a 1-2 online game or a crazy live 4-8, or (in this case) a lively 40-80 game. Its simply the optimal way to play the hand.

[Ed Miller]

Clark posted this hand in the small stakes forum because the Commerce 40-80 seems to play like the 3-6 at the Borgata. For reals. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Joe Tall]

Hit me like a brick on the drive in to work. The only way you didn't do 'anything' to maximize your chance of winning is if the SB bet out on the turn.

I'm good, thanks Clark.

Peace,
Joe

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Clark,

Perfectly played. I think this hand is a PERFECT example of calling the flop with a vulnerable hand in a bloated multiway pot, planning to raise a good turn.

Question though:

Obviously you would've rathered the SB just call the flop raise from MP and check to him on the turn, allowing you to raise to force the field with 2 bets cold. If you, the possessor of the magic poker crystal ball, had somehow KNOWN that the SB was going to reraise and bet the turn, would you still have flat called the flop? I realize that this isn't really all that practical of a question, but it would help me in my theory thinking, if that makes any sense...

GoT

[me454555]

Whats your play if an overcard or a 3rd club hits the board on the turn? The pot seems too big to fold at this point.

[Mikey]

that's when you revert to loose-weak mode and call all the way down and pray that your hand is good, and then when it isn't you nod and shake your head and then you look up in the air and say I can't believe this MUTT limped in with that suited trash, and He HIT!!! I can never be this lucky.
HAAAA~!!!!!, in the mean time you get dealt KJs and call a raise cold because tilt is approaching, you flop top pair and lose to to KQ, and then you say how lucky the other guy is for getting dealt KQ when you get dealt KJ.

right??

[oddjob]

i haven't read all the posts, but here are my thoughts.

it has occured to me that in a super loose low limit (or in your case a super loose higher limit) game, the loose calling stations will often call with overcards, or even an overcard, with a flop like this. or perhaps bottom pair with an Ace. in other words drawing very slim. i don't even think they have to have a flush draw, possibly a gutshot. as there are 2 cold callers in this hand.

i would probably play the same way, in a low limit game. for me, it's all about maximizing the amount of money in the pot, so when you do take down the pot, it is very large. cold calling on the flop is correct, instead of having people check to you on the turn, this set you up for the sb to bet and trapping to cold callers when you raise.

i think even if the flush hit on the turn you still want money going into the pot.

am i babbling, or just restating the obvious? i kinda feel like elsyium or however you spell it, but with about a 1/4 of the length.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise the turn? With so many in the pot didn't you think you were behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot think like this and do well in super loose low limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

[mike l.]

"Flop: 9 6 3 . SB bets, BB raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 coldcalls, I coldcall. SB now 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, I call."

no this is the point where i almost spit up on myself because i realised when you called the flop closing the action that that meant you were going to raise the turn unless something really nasty dropped off. it's a great play and one ive used with great success in my finest hours.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, if you had red 99 and the flop were 8c6c3d, you should fold the flop instead

[/ QUOTE ]

What??? Man I'm still not getting any of this. How can you fold 9's here?

[el_grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise the turn? With so many in the pot didn't you think you were behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot think like this and do well in super loose low limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really want to believe you guys on this, and I do trust your opinion. Thusly I have been playing this style recently. But man, do you get killed when the fish are hitting two pair a lot. I'm loosing everything I bring to the casino quickly when I play this way and happen to be running badly.

Still waiting for the big recovery session when I'm running good.

EDIT: I had a very similar hand last night. I had QQ, didn't hit my Q on the river and lost to T6o that hit two pair on the flop. Yes, he called my preflop 3-bet cold. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Ed Miller]

That is correct.. you can run very bad. That's the nature of loose games.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, if you had red 99 and the flop were 8c6c3d, you should fold the flop instead

[/ QUOTE ]

What??? Man I'm still not getting any of this. How can you fold 9's here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't fold 99. That's very bad advice.

[blackaces13]

TY Dynasty,

I've read a few of your older posts regarding things that I've brought up recently and I consider you among the far upper tier of posters on this site. Thanks for clearing that up, I was beginning to feel stupid again.

[el_grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is bad. If you're thinking of getting away from this hand, you should do it on the flop. If not, you should cap the flop and put on the blinders later. So I think you should cap the flop.

For instance, if you had red 99 and the flop were 8c6c3d, you should fold the flop instead.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you have the feel of this table in your head. Imagine one of those super loose games where you've got players 3-betting with overcards. This isn't a table with a newbie who only raises when he has 2-pair or better. Think of the situation.

[Aaron Lovi]

[ QUOTE ]

Soft 40-80. Not as crazy as most, but still great with 2 players seeing most flops and no real solid players in the game other than Andy Fox


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't hear anything here about people 3-betting the flop with overcards. You are making that up.