Am I an idiot?

[frisbee]

This is my virgin post here. Been at it online for about a month. Win some lose some, keep learning stage--which I guess never really ends. But I don't knows everthing by a longshot.

Anyway, I don't have the specific hand history, but I was in a single table nl 20+2. Long and short, I catch the nut flush on the turn (after two-suited flop) with for checkers, including myself in. I'm in second position of the betters. I see the check before me and figure, ah [censored], if I bet out everyone folds and I get a tiny pot for my flush, so I check along, hoping maybe somewill get a non-nut flush on the river and go with it. The two past me check. The river is not suited for the flush, looks like junk but who knows. Nobody probably has much and if I bet hard I get nothing here. That's my "fear" anyway.

So I dig deep in patience and check on the river after a check. I should mention that the player in last position almost always throws out a bluff in late position when there is any weakness (who wouldn't?). I this is a great situation for her to do that. At least I'll catch her bet. So one more check after mine and sure enough, she bets strong. I reraise double and win. Don't know what's she's mucking.

So I think I played it well. Maybe some will say I shoulda been betting all along to get the pot up. Or who knows.

But in the player is all pissed off, calling me an idiot, how you supposed to play against idiots, who check-raises against checkers, etc. Some else says that I caught her, that it didn't make much sense the way I played, but hey, it worked.

Comments?

[cferejohn]

Well, *I* wouldn't have done it, but you said that you were sure she would bet strong, and you were right, so kudos for the read. I might have made a small bet earlier to see if someone would play with you (like maybe someone with the K or Q of the flush suit would come along thinking they were drawing to a winning hand).

[La Brujita]

I think you played it very well and my advice is don't listen to players who you outplay when they complain after you outplay them.

If you think someone in late position will bluff on the river, that is a great time to cr. It is even a better play when you can catch some players in the middle who can beat this bluff and may call for value but then get trapped by your raise.

I don't know if you all remember, but something similar happened in the WPT final event where there was a bet out, Doyle Brunson raised, Ted Forest (was that his name?) smelled the bluff and raised but got caught in the middle.

Regards

[triplc]

If I am to judge your idiocy by this post, then I would have to say that you are not an idiot...but it is a limited sample with which to judge... /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Plus, I'm the village idiot around here, no horning in on my territory.

I think the key to this post is that you played the players (or at least one of them). Sure, you had the cards, but how you played the players is what made the hand. However, one question I would have is this...Do you think the other 3 people in the hand were such that they would have called a couple of small bets and gotten you a bigger pot? But this question is along the same lines of the concept that you already have. The only tiny criticism might be to consider all of the players (maybe you did, but your post seems to center on the bluffer and getting her to react) when you decide how you are going to build this pot.

All in all, however, I would say well done.

CCC

[frisbee]

Thanks all. I make my share of idiot plays, but I jsut didn't get why that was one...

Cheers

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

But in the player is all pissed off, calling me an idiot, how you supposed to play against idiots, who check-raises against checkers, etc. Some else says that I caught her, that it didn't make much sense the way I played, but hey, it worked.

Comments?



[/ QUOTE ]

I think the complainer is the idiot, as most complainers are. I think you made the right read, a good play, and gained equity over betting out in this case.

It is quite common to see people complain about any play that wasn't the straightforward "bet when you hit, check when you miss" play. All I can figure is that they are trying to talk you out of being deceptive, which is one key component of a good poker game. Sure it can be overdone, but playing 100% straightforward poker is also a mistake, so these complaints are nonsense, IMO.

eastbay

[Stoneii]

La Brujita

Is that where Doyle himslef raised all-in with QT on a steal, second player (not sure of name but is big time ring player), smelled it and raised all-in with AJ, then chip leader still to act stares down at AA. Eh call - two less at final table /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Timing is everything!!

stoneii

[La Brujita]

Exactly that hand, the chip leader had JJ I think, and the big time ring game player was burned for having a read on Brunson. I thought the announcers missed some of the subtlety of that hand.

[DrPhysic]

Multi-step process:
Ignore noisy idiot,
Turn off chat,
Take the money,
Post hand on 2+2,
Get kudos for good play,
Learn some from replys.

You seem to have gotten all of them right except #2.

Doc

[frisbee]

Turn off chat, eh? I have only recently started watching the chat. No point to it I guess. Does anyone here chatter or lurk chat, or is it just something that isn't done by serious players?

Cheers

[La Brujita]

I chat and it often gets me in trouble, because I am not as cool as I should be when others criticize my plays. I for one think you should not turn off the chat because what people say about hands can be illuminating about their style of play.

I think when bad players tell you what they have they are telling the truth more often then not. When a good player tells you what he had...beware.

I also chat because it helps pass the time and it can be fun.

Regards

[DrPhysic]

I leave chat on most of the time. I turn on info in the middle to late stages of a tournament to keep track of position, average stack, and blind changes coming. Then i still have chat on about half the time. Nothing wrong with telling an idiot "VNH" when he draws out on you with a 64o, so he'll keep doing it.

During our 2+2 SNG games, the chat line is as much or more fun than the poker.

But when the chat line turns nasty or is distracting from my game, it is off instantly.

Doc

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
La Brujita

Is that where Doyle himslef raised all-in with QT on a steal, second player (not sure of name but is big time ring player), smelled it and raised all-in with AJ, then chip leader still to act stares down at AA. Eh call - two less at final table /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Just watched this one again the other night (it's the first season championship). Alan Goehring (chip leader) raises either UTG or UTG+1 with JJ. Someone (I think it was Kirill Gerasimov - the eventual 2nd place) calls with 63 (possibly suited). Doyle pushes with K7o. Ted Forest (more chips than Doyle) comes over the top all-in with AJ (maybe suited, can't remember). Goehring thinks for a while and says "I call" in a voice that sounded like "I really hate calling here but I just don't feel like I can lay down JJ six-handed against these super-aggressive players". Kirill obviously lays down his 63.

No A or K, and Gohring eliminates two players (plus picks up some extra chips from Karil).

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn off chat, eh? I have only recently started watching the chat. No point to it I guess. Does anyone here chatter or lurk chat, or is it just something that isn't done by serious players?


[/ QUOTE ]

I will chat, but almost never about poker. If someone has a name or a pic that references something I know, I'll start talking about it. No real motive, I'm just friendly. Though a player I am being friendly with is usually more likely to show when I fold to a big bet.

I only turn off chat if it is distracting me. Sometimes I will turn off observer chat, especially if someone I bust hangs around to abuse/root against me (and really, don't they have anything better to do?).

[CrisBrown]

Hi frisbee,

I chat some at the table. I tend to see a lot of the same players often, and we get to know each other, talk about life, etc. I enjoy the social interaction, and as LaBrujita said, it does help to pass the time when you're folding a lot.

However, I pay no attention to criticisms, etc. in the chat window. Winning a pot -- or losing one with a big hand -- does not make someone an expert poker commentator.

Cris