A few turn check raise attempts.

[JTG51]

Homer mentioned, and I agreed, a couple of weeks ago that most players don't check raise the turn after putting in the last action on the flop often enough. Here's a few hands where I tried. Hopefully they are interesting enough to start some conversation/debate.


Hand 1: Party 3/6. My opponent is fairly new to the game and hasn't done anything noteworthy yet.

I raise UTG with K /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif. He 3-bets and everyone else folds. I just call.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check raise and he calls.

Turn: [K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif] Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check with the intention of check raising again.



Hand 2: Party 2/4. MP is new to the table, LP is a typical low limit player.

I'm in the BB with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Four players limp, the SB completes and I raise. Everyone calls.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, only MP and LP call.

Turn: [J /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] J /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check with the intention of check raising.



Hand 3: Party 3/6. LP is a fairly tight raiser and is somewhere around average on the aggression scale.

I have A /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB. MP open limps and LP raises. SB 3-bets all in and I cap. Everyone calls.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, MP folds and LP raises. I 3-bet and LP calls.

Turn: [K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif] 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check with the intention of check raising.

[J.R.]

I really like hand 1 and I hope someone bets in hand 2, as I find more pasive callers in these games and the lack of preflop aggression re-enforces my fear that soemone may not bet. There are lots of straight draws in hand 2, so my gut reaction is to bet and hope the case J is out there and raises as its unlikely (if they are thinking about your hand) that they will suspect you have a J given your raise from the BB, although your play really looks like and airballed AK to an observant opponent. I would be more inclined to try the check-raise in hand 2 at 3-6 than 2-4.

Hand 3 looks like AK or a slowplayed set from a tight raiser. Check-raising opens you up to a 3-bet and may allow him to get away from AK. Does a player with average aggresison always bet this turn with AK after your strong showing and then pay you off when they do bet?

Just some musings.

[CrackerZack]

Me and JR are gonna disagree here.

I don't like it in hand 1. You really really don't want to give a flush draw a free card. I don't see it as real likely, but he may take on free card with AsQs or AsJs. If he has AA or QQ you'll probably get it in, although against passive people I've seen AA check this through. QQ you're gonna get all the action you want so bet, 3-bet, etc.

Hand 2 I like more. They see you raised the blind with AK, did the obigatory flop bet, and now gave up. Its still a disaster to give a free card to KQ but if an ace falls, action will break out. I'd like to know more about MP/LP before attempting but this is a situation I like to consider it.

Hand 3 I'm not in love with it. I know this is party but assuming LP is not a complete idiot that board is getting less friendly. I think you can really only expect KQ or QQ to bet (that you beat) and QQ may fold. Probably not since no one there folds on the same street they bet, but may not call the river. I'm probably giving him too much credit though. I doubt you'll be 3-bet here but you could be checkraising the losing hand.

Also, I've been whiffing too frequently with this recently so I've slowed down my attempts a lot more when I don't have reads on the players.

[Yeknom58]

On hand 1 I would prefer to bet the turn and go for the river CR. If he's drawing you don't want to give him any free cards and I doubt he bets. If he has a hand that he's going to bet on the turn he's surely going to bet on the river if checked to. I think it's "safer" to bet and go for the river CR.

On hands 2/3 the turn Cr look great I hoped they worked out.

[J.R.]

In Hand 1 I thought AK (although only one K is out) was a prime candidate to bet the turn as well. I just don't see that many hands that 3-bet an UTG raiser (who then only calls the 3-bet) not bet this turn, as the flop check-raise looks like a cheap move at this pot. I also think someone aggressive enough to 3-bet a UTG raise with AsJs or AsQs would 3-bet this flop and/or bet the turn if checked to, not call and take a free card if checked to. I would think QQ 3-bets a check-raise so you don't lose much action and a lesser hand like AQ or JJ may pay off a river bet (assuming they check the turn thru) that might have folded had you bet the turn.

I like Hand 2 against the right opponents, but here no one showed any strength preflop or on the flop, its 2-4 where I tend to think people call too much and don't bet/raise enough, and with 3 Js accounted for its harder for someone to have flopped top pair, but there are plenty of straight draws that could have called the flop. I think many 2-4 players call with a pair hoping you have AK but are less inclined to bet their pair than at 3-6 when you check.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I'm not too big a fan of Hand 1. You don't want to give free cards with the 2 spades and unless Party players are as dumb as I've been made to believe, I simply don't see many people stupid enough to get checkraised twice in one hand.

Hand 2 and Hand 3 are good.

[Ulysses]

Hand 1: What do you put him on that will bet the turn but wouldn't raise your turn bet? Now, your opponent 3-bet pre-flop and you have Ks, so I'm not very worried about a flush draw here like others are. But I think betting will get you raised by KQ/QQ and JJ will call but not bet. So, that leaves you w/ AA and AK (would he just call the flop raise w/ these?) as the hands that this will work well against. Close, but I think betting is better.

Hand 2: They're less likely to have a Jack now and will call a bet with two pair more often than they'll bet it. I like betting better. And, once again, if they do have a Jack, you can 3-bet.

Hand 3: Hmmm.... Interesting. What do you put your opponent on? Seems like KQ/KT/AK are the only ones you beat that he would bet. But he would call w/ a ton of stuff. Again, I think betting is probably better, but this one is close.

[JTG51]

Hand 1: What do you put him on that will bet the turn but wouldn't raise your turn bet?

I agree with that line of thought in general, but I think I may be more likely to get 4 bets on the turn from QQ by check raising than by betting. Many low limit Party players are passive enough that they wouldn't cap if I bet and 3-bet, but they might 3-bet themselves.

So, that leaves you w/ AA and AK (would he just call the flop raise w/ these?) as the hands that this will work well against.

Yes, I think many of these guys are passive enough to just call a flop bet with those hands.

Hand 2: They're less likely to have a Jack now and will call a bet with two pair more often than they'll bet it.

They'll call every single time, but I hoped that my play looked enough like AK that one of them would bet with a T or a straight draw.

Hand 3: Hmmm.... Interesting. What do you put your opponent on? Seems like KQ/KT/AK are the only ones you beat that he would bet.

I think a K is highly likely, and if it's a K it's a good one since this guy has pretty tight raising standards. I thought AK or KQ were most likely. I'm not sure that he'd raise it prelop, but even if he does have KJ my check raise isn't a disaster since he's not going to 3-bet very often and I have 8 outs to suckout on the river.

[JTG51]

I would be more inclined to try the check-raise in hand 2 at 3-6 than 2-4.

That's a fair point. My attempt is obviously much better if my opponents are likely to semibluff bet a draw when I check the turn.

Check-raising opens you up to a 3-bet and may allow him to get away from AK.

Opening myself up to a 3-bet is another good point, but I don't think he's going to fold AK. Ever.

Does a player with average aggresison always bet this turn with AK after your strong showing and then pay you off when they do bet?

I think an average opponent would be AK more than often enough to make check raising more profitable than betting. And I think they'll pay off every single time.

[JTG51]

I don't like it in hand 1. You really really don't want to give a flush draw a free card.

I'm with J.R. on this one. An opponent aggressive enough to 3-bet AQs or AJs before the flop isn't just calling the flop check raise and taking a free card on turn very often.

They see you raised the blind with AK, did the obigatory flop bet, and now gave up.

Yup, that's what I was thinking. I think a lot of opponents will bet all kinds of hands here given the action so far.

[JTG51]

On hand 1 I would prefer to bet the turn and go for the river CR. If he's drawing you don't want to give him any free cards and I doubt he bets.

As I mentioned in my reply to Zack, I think it's highly unlikely that he's drawing.

[JTG51]

...I simply don't see many people stupid enough to get checkraised twice in one hand.

You don't have to be stupid to get check raised twice, you have to make a lot of reasonable value bets.

I've been check raised twice in the same hand many, many times, but I guarantee I'm way ahead overall on hands where I get check raised on the flop then checked to and bet again on the turn.

[JTG51]

I won all three hands and was two for three on the check raise attempts. Hand 2 got checked around.

I bet the river in all three hands and was called by AA in hand 1, QT in hand 2, and AK in hand 3.