How Great is Tiger Woods

[andyfox]

He got his 40th win yesterday, passing Ton Watson and Gene Sarazen on the all-time win list. Woods, Watson and Sarazen has been tied for 9th place all-time. (BTW, Watson and Sarazen probably hit the two most famous shots in golf history, Sarzen's double eagle at Augusta and Waston's chip-in at Pebble Beach). Woods got to 40 wins in something like 80 less tournaments than the previous fastest to 40 (Nicklaus).

Here is the top 10 all-time PGA win list, with major wins in parentheses:

Sam Snead 82 (7)
Jack Nicklaus 73 (18)
Ben Hogan 64 (9)
Arnold Palmer 62 (7)
Byron Nelson 52 (5)
Billy Casper 51 (3)
Walter Hagen 44 (11)
Tiger Woods 40 (8)
Cary Middlecoff 40 (3)
Gene Sarazen 39 (7)
Tom Watson 39 (8)

I don't think too many people would rate Casper or Middlecoff as a greater player than Woods, so it seems only Snead, Nicklaus, Hogan, Palmer, Nelson and Hagen, at the most, were greater golfers than Mr. Woods.

And Tiger had not even reached his prime yet.

[superleeds]

In my humble opinion, Tiger is the greatest golfer who has ever lived. He has achieved everything during arguably the most competative environment there has been in golf.

[HDPM]

He is unbelievable. He was nowhere near his best this tournament. His driver was terrible again. I think his swing is off and he has not found the answer yet. He does something funky at the top when his timing goes, his head dips a lot, and he compensates with great athletic ability But then the ball sprays. If he keeps his swing tight and his head and shoulders level he smokes it sown the middle. There, that's my swing analysis. Don't ever trust my opinion on a golf swing. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

So I actually think he is in a slump despite what he says. If he gets his swing back to where he can go at a driver, it will be scary. He putts so well and competes so well that he can win when he is off. And he is off right now. If his career continues as it has been going he will clearly be the greatest of all time. The only thing keeping him from being the best now is the number of tournaments won and longevity. If he keeps at it, there will be no debate.

BTW, Jones isn't on your list but was great.

[scotnt73]

he is the new Michael Jordan. no longer is someone the Michael Jordan of poker. Now they are the Tiger Woods of poker. Thats saying alot.

[andyfox]

Yes, Bobby Jones never turned pro (I think). He is the only other golfer who might reasonably be considered above Woods if Woods' career ended right now.

On Saturday morning, I asked my son's golf instructor who was the greatest golfer among Stanford alumni. He said Woods without hesitation. I asked why, both Watson and Woods had 39 wins and 8 majors. He said Watson might well have had the greatest five year run of any golfer when he was in his prime, but that Woods' five year run is light years ahead of Watson's. Woods is clearly the greatest ever in his prime and, as you say, it's now just a question of longevity to see where his number end up. My guess is that he beats Nicklaus's 18 majors and comes very close to Snead's 82 wins.

[HDPM]

Woods is better. His record is better already for a couple of reasons. First, add his 3 in a row US Amateurs. Then look at the fact he has won the career slam. Watson didn't. Winning all 4 majors is a real feat. Watson won one major a bunch of times and a few others. Also winning 4 in a row is amazing. No contest between Woods and Watson if Woods chose to buy an island and live with Elin and never play again.

[Festus22]

Without question, Tiger is a unique talent. Only once his career is finished will we have the necessary facts to declare him the greatest golfer ever. If he were to quit the game today, I don't think one could make that designation.

Tiger has many life events yet to experience. Marriage, children, loss of a parent, etc. Each of these could have a profound impact on his life's priorities and desire to continue to commit the time necessary to play golf at the highest level. Only time will tell if he can maintain his near obsession with the game that he exhibits today.

But in the here and now, it's a privilage to watch the day-to-day unfolding of someone who may earn the title of greatest ever and just what it entails to reach such status.

[daryn]

obviously the guy is a great golfer right? who disagrees with this??

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
obviously the guy is a great golfer right? who disagrees with this??

[/ QUOTE ]

hes talking about in comparison to the other great golfers he listed.

[hetron]

How great is Billy Casper? The guy is sixth all time in wins, yet is rarely mentioned among the all time gr
eats. Even more amazing is the fact that if Casper had the lead on a Sunday, you might as well resign yourself to playing for 2nd place. Casper never lost the lead of a tournament on Sunday. Pretty amazing stat, if you ask me.

[Clarkmeister]

From the moment he held all 4 major trophies at once, he was #2 all-time. That hasn't changed. The only question now is when he passes Jack.

[Bill Murphy]

Watson is close, maybe the closest, to Tiger on "peak-performance-over-a-coupla-consec-seasons" standings. Miller, Price, & even "I found my soulmate" Duval are also high up on that list, among others.

But TW is so far ahead on a "peak" basis its barely measurable. Kinda like those handicappers who throw out Secretariat's Triple Crown times cuz it skews the track times, or something.

*HOWEVER* Bob May at Valhalla ain't exactly JackyBear at Turnberry or PBeach. And how 'bout Trevino at Merion & St. Anne's? Impossible to quantify, but the Five Bitter Old Men just seemed to 'compete' better, although I'd love for a Bill James type to do a full research project on this subject.

Anyway, TW is the best; he just doesn't have the best career yet(aside from money & hotties that is /images/graemlins/wink.gif). And like I posted in the other thread, winning the Match Play back to back & 20-3 overall is just insane. Along w/the six amateur titles & Ryder-Presidents, isn't he something like 80-7? Incomprehensible. And he's won 9 WGC's; Clarkey 2; Els+VJ+Phold=*0*??!! Nothing to compare it to.

Random thoughts: I still make him only 50% to catch Jacky; mebbe a bit higher to catch Slammer. Riviera? 30% 59? 5% 58? .5%

And Duval is finished, but hey, he sounds happy, he's set for life(s), & he was once a legit #1. HOF? Very borderline but I sneak him in.

Interesting article on Duval in new golf mag. Comparing him to Miller; never thought of that, but both DD & JM better than Beck or IB-F ever thought of being. If DD coulda held on at the '98 Master's he'd be a lock for HOF. Miller blew the Master's a couple times. I give Miller the edge here on both peak & career, but very very close.

Wish DD'd talked to me 'fore he started liftin'. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Miller(like Weiskopf) let Jack in his dome. Weiskopf like a wee nip now'ens, too. Lotsa snakes round Amen Corner! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Bill Murphy]

Casper certainly is the most underrated golfer of all time. Most wins of anyone btwn '64-'70. Mebbe needed another major or two in there somewhere.

But a stone killer on the course, just like Jack & Tiger. Destroyed Arnie at the '66 Open, while dropping the needle from time to time.

He's just a hair, if that, behind the Jack-Arnie-Gary-Lee-Tom group, and far ahead of whoever's 7th.

Golf smack, gotta love it!

[andyfox]

No charisma and not enough majors, I guess. Watson was a great, great putter in his prime, but I think Casper might even have been better. You don't win over 50 tournaments, competing against Nicklaus and Palmer, by accident.

And how about Middlecoff? Not a lot of people know he won forty tournaments.

[JTrout]

Jack Nicklaus and Tiger are 1 & 2. One could, for now, argue the order.

When looking at the # of wins, and majors, players today have compared to players of yesterday, you have to take a few things into consideration.

For better of worse, equipment has been a great equalizer of the game.
Better instruction, TV, junior programs, etc. has deepened the pool of potential winners exponentially.
The # of players today trying to compete professionally lends itself to deeper fields, and tougher competition.

Given these, and other factors, the way that Tiger has distanced himself from his competition is truly awesome.

[hetron]

The fact that he never lost a tournament in which he had the lead on Sunday against those players is just as amazing as his amount of overall wins, IMHO.

[hetron]

The Middlecoff name totally shocked me on that list.

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
The Middlecoff name totally shocked me on that list.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dr. Cary Middlecoff, an OLE MISS alum. Hotty Toddy!

He wrote Advanced Golf in 1957, leading the way for the 2+2 Advanced series of books! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[J_V]

Of course Love folded like Tommy Angelo in the BB.

[J_V]

If Phil Ivey looked didn't lool like Tiger, he'd be the Michael Jordan of Poker.

[scalf]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif ya ever notice how both tiger and phil resemble louis armstrong....???

ain't it amazing that the son of strom thurmonds' mixed race daughter has an earned M.D. degree and works as a physician in a multiracial society...??

jmho

gl /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[scalf]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif scalf did not mean to start a second thread competing with andy's (mistake made).., but scalf does feel tiger's results in such a pressure-packed, multimedia overexposed environment is the most impressive feat ever accomplished in all of competitive sports.

i wish tiger could teach us his mental game...geesh the gnp would go up 8x in a year....nl

jmho..gl /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif

[southerndog]

Don't forget about his 3 consecutive Junior Amateurs before 3 consecutive Amateurs. No small feat.