TPTK flop decision

[Luke]

A 9-handed, loose-passive 10-20 game at the Borgata. The table is routinely seeing 5 or 6 people to the flop for one bet. Not only are they loose preflop, but they will often go to far with hands postflop. Very rarely did a hand not go to a showdown.

The gentleman to my immediate right seems to be one of the tighter players at the table. I'd been sitting there for about a half an hour and hadn't seen him show any hands down yet. I also haven't seen him do much betting up to this point.

In the hand in question, he is the BB and I am UTG. I'm dealt A /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I limp, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, the button limps, SB folds and the BB taps. 5 to flop for 5 and half small bets.

The flop:


8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets out. I...

Any comments welcome.

Luke

[Barry]

I'm not a big fan of the UTG limp with Axs, but if the game is as loose passive as you say, I'm not going to argue.

On the flop, you need to raise. You probably have the best hand and you need to protect it. A raise should (maybe it won't, but at least their calls would be incorrect) drive out the folks with only overcards and gutshots. If he's got 96, good for him.

[novamob]

Raise.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
A 9-handed, loose-passive 10-20 game at the Borgata. The table is routinely seeing 5 or 6 people to the flop for one bet. Not only are they loose preflop, but they will often go to far with hands postflop. Very rarely did a hand not go to a showdown.

The gentleman to my immediate right seems to be one of the tighter players at the table. I'd been sitting there for about a half an hour and hadn't seen him show any hands down yet. I also haven't seen him do much betting up to this point.

In the hand in question, he is the BB and I am UTG. I'm dealt A /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I limp, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, the button limps, SB folds and the BB taps. 5 to flop for 5 and half small bets.

The flop:


8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets out. I...

Any comments welcome.

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for starters mr. bb who you classify as tight does not have to be as such. the reason is the length of time you've observed him...30 minutes?!?!? i go 30 minutes without seeing a flop nevermind showing down a hand on a regular basis.

thus you must take into account the small sample from which you draw your conclusion. he MAY be tight but he also MAY be loose and getting crappy cards for 30 mins.

in any case you flop tptk in a vulnerable situation. you need to protect your hand and there is 6.5sb's in pot when he bets out...you should raise here and make it 8.5sb's with only 4:1 odds on the call for the other two players.

overcards need to pay because 9-k would be bad ...as would any card that completes a straight these people will draw to for a bet but MAY not for two.

bb could have numerous hands here including some that beat yours and others that don't. for this one decision i'd say a raise here is mandatory.

questions? comments?
-Barron

[Mikey]

all, those cards you mention falling can hurt your hand coupled in with the fact that these players will take their hands really far...

Can someone please explain to me why folding is wrong??

[Luke]

Well for starters mr. bb who you classify as tight does not have to be as such. the reason is the length of time you've observed him...30 minutes?!?!? i go 30 minutes without seeing a flop nevermind showing down a hand on a regular basis.

Agreed. I know it's hard to determine a player's tendencies based on only 30 minutes of play. That's why I didn't just say, "tight BB bets".

Instead I said after 30 minutes of play, the BB "seems to be one of the tighter players at the table."

I tried to lay out the facts as I knew them up to that point. The fact that the information on this guy was only 30 minutes of play would of course lead us to not weight the rest of the data very heavily, as you suggested.

Luke

[andyfox]

"I'm not a big fan of the UTG limp with Axs, but if the game is as loose passive as you say, I'm not going to argue."

I'm less of a fan of it in loose passive games than any other kind. In those games you're likely to get several players limp behind you and then you find yourself in the position of having A-8 on an 8-7-5 flop with a bet in front of you and several players behind you. Feh.

[Luke]

I'm less of a fan of it in loose passive games than any other kind. In those games you're likely to get several players limp behind you and then you find yourself in the position of having A-8 on an 8-7-5 flop with a bet in front of you and several players behind you. Feh.

Andy, I agree that this hand, in this position, will sometimes put you in a tough spot. But against a lineup of players who don't raise much preflop, and will go too far with hands postflop; you don't think you can profitably play A8s?

I have faith in you and really think you can. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Luke

[andyfox]

I appreciate the faith. But I'm sure I end up doing better with A-8s with position than with players behind me.

This particular hand is not unusual. You've flopped a top pair of 8s. Your top pair is vulnerable to overcards and the flop is straight-coordinated. While your hand is most likely best now, it's not likely to be best by the river.

Now, give me A-8s on the button with a couple of passive limpers in front of me, and I will raise. The most likely thing that happens is one blind folds, one calls, the limpers call, and being passive as they are, they will all check to the raiser on the flop. I have a much better chance of being in control and dictating the action.

I'm not a big fan of limping UTG in any type of game.

[Luke]

As most of you suggested, I raised the flop. MP1 called and the BB called, the other 2 limpers folded.

The turn brought the 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

BB checked, I bet, MP1 folded and BB called.

Headsup and the river brings the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif for a final board of:

8 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

The BB bets into my A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Call or fold?

Luke

[DcifrThs]

"i don't love limping utg in any type of game"

really? i love those nice soft seats where any time i get that beautiful jctc i limp and have the whole herd limp behind me. in a REAALLLY loose game i'd even raise with it where people are calling those raises and it just engenders a bigger pot and poorer play by opponents going way to far with hands.

i also almost never limp utg...as the owl says, "i like to have a hand i can raise with." but when you find a game that its good to do it in, you've hit paydirt /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Barron

[Manzanita]

Luke,

On the end you have to call the BB's bet when you are heads-up. If he has a busted draw, a bet here is about the only way he can win the pot.

-- Manzanita

[DiamondDave]

When a really tight player limps from EP in a loose game and bets a flop containing all low-ish cards, something in my brain starts screaming "SET! SET! FOLD NOW!".

You're not always behind in this spot. But when you're behind, you're often waaaay behind.

I vote for not giving him action.

[Luke]

I called the BB's bet and he turned over 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the winner.

You can question my preflop limp and river call if you want, but I feel my most pivotal decision was on the flop.

It's pretty much a raise or fold situation. I felt folding might be right when you really think about the situation:

There's some chance that I'm behind the possibly tight BB who bet out or someone who's yet to act and if I am ahead, I'm not going to like most cards that come on the turn or river. My pot equity right now can't be too great. It's going to be hard to clear out overcards and even backdoor straight/flush draws, even with a raise. Couple all of that with the fact that the pot is still pretty small and I think folding has a lot of merit.

But as it was, I had a golden opportunity to charge the entire field two bets and I took it. Too bad I was virtually drawing dead.

Any other thoughts/comments?

Luke

[haakee]

I like the way you played it start to finish. In a game like you describe I would limp UTG with A8s. You have to raise the flop. There's a good chance you're ahead and you can knock out the thin draws. Turn bet is fine, you have no reason to believe you're behind, and the crying call on the river is also fine because you're getting reasonable odds.

[Anadrol 50]

I like your game a lot! A lot !

[elysium]

hi luke
bad pre-flop call. shouldn't be in this one. on the flop, you need to try to get the immediate left to 3 bet it.

[webiggy]

I don't like this hand out of position either. In a multi-way pot, I don't think this hand has alot of value unless the flop slaps you accross the face with a made hand, flush draw, trips or two pair. Suited connectors have the highest values in these types of family pots, yes?

I'd like to think I have the discipline to fold this hand on the flop after the BB bets out, but like most of you, I can easily see my way to raising this hand.

[David Sklansky]

This comes straight out of our books. The play on the flop is to fold.

[webiggy]

I know it does, but in the heat of the moment the rush can be overwhelming..,

That's why my copy of your book is dog-eared beyond recognition.

[Mike Gallo]

Mikey,

You said;Can someone please explain to me why folding is wrong??

David said; This comes straight out of our books. The play on the flop is to fold.

Good job kid /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[SA125]

All due respect to your knowledge of the game.

Taking his decision to call with this hand UTG as a given, why does a BB lead out (from an unraised blind bet) into a str/fl draw flop automatically translate into folding TPTK?

As far as odds go and the possible hands the BB could be dealt, I don't see how this flop with position against the BB makes A8 a loser 51% of the time.

[Kevin J]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as odds go and the possible hands the BB could be dealt, I don't see how this flop with position against the BB makes A8 a loser 51% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are neglecting to consider that this is not a heads-up hand between hero and bb. There are 3 other players yet to act. It's not how often A8 beats the bb's hand, or even how often A8 beats everyone else. It's how often A8 will finish as the best hand after all the cards are dealt.

I winced when I saw Sklansy's response, because as it is, very few players can fold here. And that's a good thing.

[Mike Gallo]

SA125,

I suggest you read/reread the essay "Three Horse Race" from Getting the Best of It from David Sklansky. You will see how this story applies to this hand.

I do agree with Mikey about folding in this spot. Go figure /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Tyler Durden]

You sure he didn't have T9?

[Luke]

You sure he didn't have T9?

Yeah, I'm sure he had 64. Why do you ask? Because the Jack got there on the river and then he came back to life?

My guess is he was just happy to see that the flush didn't get there and decided to bet the river. But I could be wrong. It can be tough to figure out why some players do what they do.

Luke

[andyfox]

From two brilliant earlier posts in this thread:

"you find yourself in the position of having A-8 on an 8-7-5 flop with a bet in front of you and several players behind you. Feh."

"You've flopped a top pair of 8s. Your top pair is vulnerable to overcards and the flop is straight-coordinated. While your hand is most likely best now, it's
not likely to be best by the river."

I agree with the teacher.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
I called the BB's bet and he turned over 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the winner.

You can question my preflop limp and river call if you want, but I feel my most pivotal decision was on the flop.

It's pretty much a raise or fold situation. I felt folding might be right when you really think about the situation:

There's some chance that I'm behind the possibly tight BB who bet out or someone who's yet to act and if I am ahead, I'm not going to like most cards that come on the turn or river. My pot equity right now can't be too great. It's going to be hard to clear out overcards and even backdoor straight/flush draws, even with a raise. Couple all of that with the fact that the pot is still pretty small and I think folding has a lot of merit.

But as it was, I had a golden opportunity to charge the entire field two bets and I took it. Too bad I was virtually drawing dead.

Any other thoughts/comments?

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise or fold? You're being too results oriented here IMO. If this guy was a known rock that you've played with before, a fold could conceivably be correct, but he's virtually an unknown. 30 minutes of play is 20 hands at the most! If you play a8s utg, what kind of flops are you looking for? Other than the rare times you flop a flush draw, this is about as good as it gets, if you don't like this sort of situation I suggest tossing this hand preflop and making a9s or ats the minimum for your position.

Raise is the only option on the flop. When you get check-raised on the turn or three bet on the flop, then you can consider a fold.

[SA125]

Alright all you brown noses, you can sit down now.

Just kidding fella's, just kidding. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What better way to get set straight on a question than to disagree with the man who literally wrote the book?

Thanks for the feedback. Will read that. And more.