Hi A hands early in SnGs.

[triplc]

Hi all,

After an experience in an SnG in which I limped with AQo turned into a real debacle, I was wondering how people play hands like AQs, AQo, AJs, AJo, ATs, ATo.

Here's how I've been playing them to this point (Generally speaking).

ATo - usually toss this one away unless I can limp in from late position.

ATs - will limp in from middle position or later, especially if other limpers already in.

AJo - basically the same as ATo. Might venture in from MP once in a while if table is particularly passive.

AJs - About 80% limp, 20% raise. Will play from anywhere if table has been passive. When aggressive, I will wait until at least late middle position to play.

AQo - About 80% limp, 20% raise. Will usually raise if first into the pot, but will limp with other limpers in front.

AQs - About 60% limp, 40% raise. Now that I read that, I am thinking I should my AQo and AQs play, is the suited hand is more likely to play well multiway.

Anyway, I have been sticking to the idea that you don't raise with hands you don't want to see reraised, and all of these qualify. Thus, I've been limping most of the time. But it would seem that with a few limpers in front, a raise could be used to clean out the blinds and even build a pot. I am thinking about raising more often with these hands (especially AQo and AQs) more during rounds 1 and 2.

Please advise...

Thanks.

CCC

[Stoneii]

I'm at work so can't expand detail but on top of the question you pose, it's what you do with these hands on various flops that is of great interest to me. ATo on flop of T97, JT2, AKx etc.

Again, all will likely be dependent on reads/players/situation/stacks but if I go in with a hand like ATo then I have to be willing to attack scary flops, if I fold to them all then I'd have to wonder why I'm there in the first place (flopping monsters just doesn't happen often enough /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Cheers

stoneii

[triplc]

Thers is no question ATo is a toughie to play postflop, and I would say that I muck it nearly all the time early, unless I am in late position and the table is very loose, passive. So, playing in late position, I can at least see what action comes up before me. T97 with little action, I play it strongly. JT2 is tough because a lot of people play JT, KJ etc. AKx is also tough, and I think that you use position to see where you think you stand here with these two types of flops.

I've found that playing at Party recently has made me lean towards loosening up my starting requirements early to some degree, because with the fast blind structure and the ridiculous players, AT, AJ, AQ are pretty good hands and I think you have to win some pots with them to do well in that structure. At UB and Stars, I can be more patient, and will routinely muck ATo without thinking twice in round 1-3.

It's a very good point you bring up, though, stoneii.

What about AJ and AQ?

CCC

[Moonsugar]

Depending on blind structure I fold most of these hands unless I am first in at the CO or button. If I did play them more I would like to raise more than you post. If you limp in and bet and get played with when an ace flops you have to fold. And if I know you limp with these hands then I am raising you every time. If you raise in and bet big then I have to wonder if I am playing a weak hand like AT.
AT, AJ, AQ can be very hard to laydown if you hit the A and can cost a lot of chips, that is why I typically fold early in the tourney.

[triplc]

I agree to a point. I think my big problem is with AQ. Some folks will limp with AA, KK, or AK preflop, but not many. So, if I am at a passive table (oops..just the type of table to have limpers on these hands...hmm) I will limp with AQ and if nobody raises, I figure I've got the best hand going in. AT and AJ are less certain, which is why I play them less frequently. I hope my post didn't make it sound like I play these every time I see them.

If I have AQ and an A flops, I usually figure to have the best hand, do I not? Assuming for the moment that nobody has higher than a pair (maybe a silly thing to do), then I am only going to lose to AA or AK. With 4-6 limpers, am I really concerned about that? No, I'm more concerned about the BB with his J6 hitting an AJ6 flop, or 77 hitting an A73 flop. I think the argument for raising here comes from the possibility that a strong raise will likely remove those hands from beating you.

The flip side of this is that if the blinds are 15/30 and your starting stack is 800, then you can be sitting on 785 chips, raise AQ to 90, get reraised and muck it and now you've lost more than 10% of your stack. I guess that's better than losing all of it, though.

Boy, what a ramble. I guess these hands are just tough to play. My point is that in a fast blind structure, I think you have to find a way to play some of them at a full table, especially AQ.

CCC

[CrisBrown]

Hiya CCC,

[ QUOTE ]
After an experience in an SnG in which I limped with AQo turned into a real debacle, I was wondering how people play hands like AQs, AQo, AJs, AJo, ATs, ATo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I ran AQs, AQo, ATs, and ATo against a small sample of common opposing hands. Where the opposing hand is suited, it is of a different suit. In each case, I give the win% for the AQ or AT hand:

vs. JJ -- AQs (45.9), AQo (42.5), ATs (32.3), ATo (28.6)
vs. 99 -- AQs (47.3), AQo (44.2), ATs (47.1), ATo (44.1)
vs. A4s -- AQs (67), AQo (65.7), ATs (62.8), ATo (61.3)
vs. JTs -- AQs (61.2), AQo (59), ATs (67.5), ATo (65.8)
vs. 87s -- AQs (60.8), AQo (58.7), ATs (60.8), ATo (59)
vs. JTs, 87s, and 44 -- AQs (31.7), AQo (28), ATs (28.8), ATo (24.8)

A few notes:

(1) Even where AQ/AJ/AT is a favorite, it's rarely that big of a favorite (at best 2:1, more often ~3:2).

(2) Where AQ/AJ/AT is an underdog, or in a multi-way pot, suitedness accounts for ~10% of its equity.

(3) In most cases, ATs plays better than AQo. The exceptions are JJ (where the Q makes two overcards), and vs. a weak Ace (AQ is less likely to split).

AQ/AJ/AT are all hands where you definitely need to hit a flop to have a big pot hand. In a multi-way pot, you're likely to have the best hand and still be an underdog to win the pot, so you have to get out of the hand if you don't hit. These hands are simply not as strong as they seem. I think it's probably wise to play them only when you have position, and can get in cheaply.

Cris

[Vee Quiva]

I think you need to raise with A-10s and up when you are in position. Unless you are playing a no limit tournament, I think you are giving too many hands a free ride. In no limit, someone can always give you a hard decision if they raise after you. In limit games, it's usually pretty cut and dry what to do if someone shows aggression behind you.

The trick is to get away from the hand if the flop doesn't hit you. That's where you can save the money. Not preflop.