AKs in first hand of a paradise 10+1, easy laydown?

[Jon34]

5/10 blinds, 1000 chip stacks. I get A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP. I raise to 45, get Button and SB call.
Flop is 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB checks, I bet 100, button folds, SB check raises allin.
it feels like a steal raise, and I probably have 15 outs, I could even be ahead of QJ of spades or similar (straight draw?), but I cant risk my stack on the first hand like that, right? He also could just have an overpair, a pair and draw, or the made straight, cutting my outs to 9. Easy laydown, correct?

I ended up busting out on JTs by the time I finished writing this by going allin after getting raised on the turn on a 9AK-Q board (flop was checked around). He had K9 for the slowplayed bottom 2 and rivers a king. oh well.
Sorry for the bad beat story, but was that first hand a correct laydown?

[La Brujita]

FWIW I would have called. Nut flush draw and overcards puts you in strong position against most hands. You already have 100 invested in this round of betting furthering the pot odds you re getting.

[Jon34]

really? I have 855 left in chips, and the pot is less than 1200. while there are a few drawing hands he could semibluff checkraise me with, it seems that some of his likely holdings are a coinflip, but a good number (any 2 pair, a set, the made straight) knock me down to 9 outs. Also, even if I double up, there are still 8 others left, and I dont have a guarantee for making in the money. If I lose a coinflip, I get nothing. You dont wait for a better spot?

[Bluff1]

I would probably lay it down here Jon. A check raise is usually bad news and he way over bet the pot. When someone over bets the pot by that much, they usually have crap or the goods. Seeing how its early I would just fold and wait for a better spot.

But I got to ask why the bet of a 100? I think you would have been better off checking than betting for what its worth. I hate to get shut out of pots the way you did on this one.

[Jon34]

thats a good question. At the time, it seemed like I could most likely take the pot down right there if I bet, and if LP raised me, I still have either 15 or 9 outs depending on his hand. I would have called a standard sized raise, but the allin wasnt worth it. Isn't betting out with a 4 flush and 2 overs a standard play on a board like that?

[Bluff1]

I might bet it if I was first to act and even then it's a maybe. The pot is small here and you have a huge draw. If you bet and are reraised a ton, as you were, then you are put to a tough decision. If you check you will mostly see the turn for free. If someone does bet it’s unlikely that he will bet enough to shut you out of the pot.

[La Brujita]

I agree a cr all in is usually a signal that a huge hand has been made. That being said, with the crazies that play small tournaments (at least from my experience at PP) I think you may well have the 42% chance that the pot is laying you. It is a tough decision and laying it down might not be a bad play.

I have long been a proponent of survival in tourneys, but once you are in a big pot early in the tourney, I try not to avoid positive ev situations (due to the fungiblity of tournaments).

You are a fave against and overpairs well as against a pair and an oe straight draw.

That being said you are not getting correct odds against a flopped set, made straight or even two pair and frankly laying it down might not be a bad play.

I think your bet of 100 on the flop is not a bad play at all. you are the pre flop raiser and hit the flop pretty hard. This bet seems a pretty standard play to make; you may win the pot with the bet right there.

Regards

[PrayingMantis]

For me it's a close one between checking and betting on the flop, probably betting, but I *definitely* fold after the check-raise all-in. I think most chances are that he's not bluffing with a lower flush draw in his position. He could easily be on a 2-pair, set, or a flopped straight, and he's afraid of a flush draw. I've seen this moves a lot on 11$ buy-ins. So basically, you are at best a coin-flip (against 65, say), and usually a big dog.

It's too early in my opinion to take your chances here. If it was LP who pushed, I think calling is a bit better, but I still fold. Doesn't worth it.

PrayingMantis

[PrayingMantis]

La Brujita,

[ QUOTE ]
You are a fave against and overpairs well as against a pair and an oe straight draw

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree you are a fave against oe straight draw, you are not better than a coin-flip against any pair, which makes it a clear fold, IMO, regardless of the existing small pot before the push (that hero built himself).

PrayingMantis

[Moonsugar]

I have a different philosophy than most others here, I guess. I am willing to accept the chance that my only win is the flush and call the all in. The reason is that it is so early in the tourney. If I win I am in a very good position to make money and if I lose I start another tourney. This play may not make thew most sense from this single tourney perspective, but I believe it will give me more money/hour. Which is all I care about.

Against any pair but AA and KK you are a slight favorite (and getting better than 1:1). You are 3:1 dog, if the man has a set. The worst possibility is a 4:1 dog v. 6s 3s.

Everyone has to play their game, but I risk the chance I am a big dog to get the chips in this situation. If you are a much better big stack player than average then it is probably the right play. If you are a great mid, small stack player and not so good with the big stack then it is better to fold.

Later in the tourney, with a big or mid stack, it is an easy fold (except maybe to short stack).

[Moonsugar]

The 100 bet is called a semibluff. It is a nice aggressive, powerful play.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[La Brujita]

This really is a good hand posted and this type of discussion is why I love these boards. It is great to see different perspectives on a given hand by many good players.

I just want to make two further thoughts:

1. It is incorrect to bet to manufacture pot odds within a single round of betting (at least I can't think of a time to correctly do it). That being said, once you make a bet, that money is in the pot, and you need to look at pot odds going forward. In other words money you have invested is no longer yours.

2. If i am need 42:58 odds and am getting 50:50 I take it in all situations.

The tricky thing about this hand is that you might well be an underdog. The reason I think calling is a reasonable play is given the weighted average range of hands you might well be getting correct odds.

Then again you might well not and I think folding is a fine play as well.

Regards

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
1. It is incorrect to bet to manufacture pot odds (at least I can't think of a time to correctly do it). That being said, once you make a bet, that money is in the pot, and you need to look at pot odds going forward. In other words money you have invested is no longer yours.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, as a rule. Although I suspect there are exceptional situations where it works differently, but this is not the thread to discuss it.

Anyway, I mentioned the fact that hero built the pot himself, just as it was interesting to see how "his own" previous investment might cause him later to make a decision (like calling), he otherwise wouldn't make (I wouldn't call anyway, tho). My point it that certain decision can change the later play of the hand. For example: if you are willing to call an all-in here, why not bet bigger earlier on the flop, instead of making a smaller bet, and put yourself exposed to a reraise? On the other hand, checking might also be good, especially if SB has shown tendency to check-raise, plus this is obviously a "SB" (or a "BB") flop. These are questions I'm asking myslef from time to time.

[ QUOTE ]
2. If i am need 42:58 odds and am getting 50:50 I take it in all situations.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see you point, but I think that with the range of hands SB could have here, in a general view I'm not sure you're getting even 50:50. Again, I suspect at least a 2 pair here, if not better. And another thing: I don't play on Paradise, but I guess you are doing the calculation with T1000 to start with. In Stars, for example, you'll get only 55:45 from the pot here. Is it still a call, that early? Well, this sure is an interesting example where different sites might cause you to play differently. In that sense, and in this spot, Party is clearly the best, with its extra shalow structure.


PrayingMantis

[Moonsugar]

On point #2, you would be incorrect to take good odds in ALL situations. There are very good reasons (dollars) to turn down even 4:1. The AA situation described in Sklansky's TPFAP is a great illustration.

Maybe, if you play infinite SNGs then taking the correct odds is the right move, but who can play infinite SNGs???

The math is important but in tourney situations payout depends on your place, not how many chips you get at various points in the tourney. Howard Lederer has a great post on RGP re this topic.

[La Brujita]

Good points both. I of course meant (but did not write well) that I will take that edge far away from the money. Of course there are many situations where you give up even a substantial edge depending on payout structure. Sorry for the lack of precision.

PrayingMantis you make a very good point about the decision to bet affecting the play of the hand. IMO this is one of the many complexities of hold'em and poker in general that makes poker so fun. My 50:50 point was in response to your point about not being much of a favorite over an overpair. I was just trying to say if you knew he had an overpair you would call.

If it was 45:55 I would probably lay it down.

[Bluff1]

I agree a bet is not a bad play but I must argue that a check is the best play. He would have had a lot more options had he checked. I usually play my hands slow in the early rounds of a trny and faster later. How many times have we all been paid off by a weaker flush when we have had the nut flush? If his semi bluff works he picks a small pot but when it doesn't work he has lost another 100. If he checks he loses a small pot, wins a small pot, or wins a huge pot. If it was later in this trny I semi bluff if I get the chance but this early in trny I think checking and trying to complete you had is better than betting. Basically, if I have a chance to double up early by risking losing a small pot I will. The bet of 100 is not a bad play but I still think checking would have been your best option at this stage in the trny.

[allenciox]

I agree with Bluff that a check is best here, in fact, it is the only play. The pot is still small relative to your stacks, and stealing a small pot is inadvisable in no-limit. According to Sklansky, you should know how you will handle a re-raise before you bet. Here you don't. There are no GOOD options to a re-raise. So the best thing is to check.

The good thing about a check is that it gives you information on your opponents and might give you a free card. If someone bets after that, based on the person, the size of their bet, their position, and feel, I would either call the bet, fold, or do a big re-raise. Then you are putting THEM to the test, rather than them putting YOU to the test.