ciaffone/brier: a good laugh for partypoker (esp 15/30) players

[astroglide]

the subtitle could be switched to 'how to fold when your opponent has jack-high because you didn't flop the nuts'. when i first read it i thought it was on the weak/tight side, but with more and more online play the book becomes downright funny at points. it seems every time somebody calls it is assumed that they have a hand.

also thrown off by some advice in any context. for example, JTs on an AT3 flop with a flush draw for the hero and 6 opponents. it recommends raising the big blind's bet from EP and also states you probably don't have the best hand. you cannot win without improving, so you should knock out everyone in-between with worse hands? nice.

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]


also thrown off by some advice in any context. for example, JTs on an AT3 flop with a flush draw for the hero and 6 opponents. it recommends raising the big blind's bet from EP and also states you probably don't have the best hand. you cannot win without improving, so you should knock out everyone in-between with worse hands? nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what page that is on? I'd like to read the full example and explanation.

[astroglide]

it was like 89 i think. in the drawing hands section.

[DcifrThs]

I do not own this book (what book is it?)

did these big names really suggest cutting off your action by raising early with jts second pair and a flush draw? i almost never do that! should i be?

i like to maximize pot odds and expectation since in this situation it seems to me to be the same thing.

thanks
-Barron

[Kenrick]

The book is Middle Limit Holdem. Page 123.

I don't understand that play, either. It says you have a superdraw, yet you are raising to knock people out. The only reason I can think of is to try to win the $105 pot (20/40) right there.

[Kevin J]

[ QUOTE ]
JTs on an AT3 flop with a flush draw for the hero and 6 opponents. it recommends raising the big blind's bet from EP and also states you probably don't have the best hand. you cannot win without improving, so you should knock out everyone in-between with worse hands? nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how much do you think raising costs here in terms of EV? I haven't read the book yet, but if this is the worst advice they give, it can't be all that funny.

[Kevin J]

Raising here is close at the very worst.

[Kevin J]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I can think of is to try to win the $105 pot (20/40) right there.

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There are other reasons, especially in the Party 15-30 game's which Astroglide cites. In many of these games, you might might run into an ace or two behind you who will call the two cold, which is to your benefit. It's also not out of the question for a worse hand than yours to call two cold. But at the same time, you might get a lone Kd or Qd to fold, which doesn't hurt you.

Again, I don't see what the big fuss is here.

[DanZ]

Actually, it can be very important to make raises in spots like this. Yuo may get someone to fold a slightly better hand, or to fold KQ when they would call one bet. It is less clear that a raise is correct in this example, but if there's any reasonable chance you are ahead, you should make the raise even if you are behind the majority of the time.
See Sklansky's new essay on raising.

Dan Z.

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]


There are other reasons, especially in the Party 15-30 game's which Astroglide cites. In many of these games, you might might run into an ace or two behind you who will call the two cold, which is to your benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The passage specifically says you are trying to fold out Aces behind you that might call one bet but not two. Your reasoning is valid, but the book's reasoning is different.

This is the first main head-scratcher I've read in the book.

[Softrock]

I think their advice is on the tight side but not terrible if you're playing the day shift on non-holidays at Bellagio at 30-60 or higher. Their advice is generally wrong for the rest of the world especially most online games.

[astroglide]

in the book's world, everyone plays well. if you bet a 923 flop and they call, it means they have a pair. if they raise you, it means they can bet top pair / top kicker. etc. this is not like my local 20/40 game, and is virtually the opposite of party's 15/30.

page 123, drawing hands, #34:

a 15-30 game. after an early player limps, you call with JTh. the game has become very passive with hardly any preflop raising. another early player, the cutoff, the button, and the small blind all limp. there is $105 in the pot and seven players. the flop is Ah Ts 3h, giving you middle pair with a flush-draw. the small blind checks. the big blind bets. the next player folds. what do you do?

answer: raise. even though you probably don't have the best hand on an ace-high board with six opponents, you can represent a good ace and perhaps drive players out who don't want to call two bets cold. you have a "super" draw here with 9 flush outs, 3 outs to two pair, and 2 outs to trips, making you even money to end up with a hand that rates to win.

it wouldn't be a bad raise in a party 15 game because just about anything will call 2 cold here and make a nice pot. when i PROBABLY DON'T HAVE THE BEST HAND and I HAVE A SUPER DRAW it is not my goal to drive people with hopeless hands out of the pot.

[astroglide]

with 7 players in virtually any game there isn't a reasonable chance a pair of tens is best here. in tight games, people play good aces, pocket pairs, and XTs (with X often being higher than a jack). in loose games, people play virtually any ace. i would not want KQ to fold here at all.