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View Full Version : Stubborn, part 2


andyfox
02-28-2004, 12:46 AM
A while ago, I posted about my putting in far too many raises with a flush because I felt it was impossible my opponent would have 3-bet pre-flop with a hand that gave him a higher flush. A similar situation occurred this week that had me thinking deja vu all over again.

The villain in this piece is hot and stuck. Very hot and stuck. He has already been given a twenty minute time-out for throwing cards and a bunch of F-bombs. Yes, management is tough at the Commerce.

40-80. All fold to me in latish position and I raise with A-Q. He calls from the small blind and the big blind also calls.

Flop is A-Q-2 rainbow. Good. He bets. Big blind folds, I raise, he 3-bets. I call, he-he, waiting to administer the proverbial Fekali enema on the turn. Which is another queen. Good.

He bets. I raise. He 3-bets. I 4-bet. He 5-bets. I 6-bet. He 7-bets.

Yikes. Could he have pocket aces? No, of course not. I have an Ace and there's one on board, so, by my fuzzy math, he's unlikely to have the other two. And he'd have 3-bet pre-flop with pocket queens or pocket aces. He never slowplays big pairs pre-flop. Never. I know this.

So I 8-bet.

He 9-bets.

And, of course, I just call the 9-bet and just call his bet on the river. And of course he had what I should have known he had, A-2. He was hot and stuck. He was just going to keep throwing in as much money as he could with that hand come hell or high water.

Over the years I've noticed that oft, especially when a guy is on tilt, he falls in love with his hand and when the choice becomes either put him on a hand that logically must have you beat, given what he surely must know you have, or put him on a hand he's fallen in love with or on I-don't-care-what-happens, logic should be ignored. But I suppose discretion is the better part of valor. Whatever the hell that means.

But the poker gods were looking out for me. Just before the hand, he was almost down to the green and he took a wad of bills out and was undecided about letting them play in the small blind. He was holding them in his hand without putting them on the table when the dealer, a good one, asked him if the bills played.

They did.

BTW, did I mention the games at Commerce are pretty good?

HDPM
02-28-2004, 01:35 AM
If this same hand happened in the 2000-4000, you would have won approximately 50X more money. See why you should play big?


How did the guy react to the hand? Did he get more than a 20 min penalty or was he resigned to his suicide mission?

Hard to go more than 9 bets on the turn, no matter what you might think he was thinking.

Very good dealer. Tip that one well.

Those are my rambling thoughts.

andyfox
02-28-2004, 01:52 AM
"See why you should play big?"

I do play big, man. Just not at poker. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

"How did the guy react to the hand? Did he get more than a 20 min penalty or was he resigned to his suicide mission?"

Disgust and a lot of mumbling/grumbling.

"Very good dealer. Tip that one well."

Good point. Compare her with the dealer in Dynasty's game who didn't even find out how much the poster was buying in for before dealing him in.

"Hard to go more than 9 bets on the turn, no matter what you might think he was thinking."

Yup, not without the stone cold nuts. Even for a stuborn cuss like me.

Zeno
02-28-2004, 03:06 PM
The sequel has a better ending. 8-bets is fine and calling the 9-bet is trenchant and also treacherously burlesque - why be greedy? Money isn't everything, indeed - it is one big dupliticious stumbling block for many players.

-Zeno

Sooga
02-28-2004, 05:57 PM
You should have 10-bet and folded to an 11-bet.

surfdoc
02-28-2004, 06:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You should have 10-bet and folded to an 11-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I just shat my pants. Actually though, I think the villian in this hand would have laid it down for a Mike I. river checkraise. Yup, that would have been the play.

PokerBabe(aka)
02-28-2004, 08:35 PM
Hi Andy,

Wow. Your stubborness is exceeded only by your opponent's stupidity. Of course, you "just call" the 9th bet on the turn with out the nuts, huh? 9 bets? Yikes /images/graemlins/confused.gif

The other day, I heard about a guy in the 80-160 at Bellagio who went 17 bets on the river with out the nuts. That wasn't you was it?

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Garland
02-28-2004, 11:24 PM
Hi andyfox,

This is where I would trust my reads and instincts before the flop. How did Mr. Tilter react to getting raised from you. I mean, if he were flinging his chips in resignation, I'd for sure not put him on AA or QQ. Tilters tend to be poor actors. Tilters would be hard pressed not to push back with a good hand like AA or QQ with the thinking they "deserve" this pot and should punish others for even thinking about taking it away from him. And I would be hard pressed not to go to the felt based on my reads by the turn. For example, I made a post about AJ on a KJJ board.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=52 0312&Forum=All_Forums&Words=6526&Match=Username&Se archpage=1&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=520312&Searc h=true#Post520312

At a point and time when I had to make a decision on 6-betting, I trusted my read and followed up on it even though I had the 3rd best hand possible. Of course this was from a non-tilting player. If tilting players pressed on, I'm game to continue with what I feel is the best hand.

For all intensive purposes, I'd say you have the "nuts". Opportunites like this are limited, and I would have taken every last cent of his. If he was tilting and actually did have QQ or AA, I'd tip my hat to him as the greatest poker actor of all-time.

Garland

mikelow
02-29-2004, 12:53 AM
A great post. Ya know, I would have eased off just like you did, fearing the pocket aces.

Got to fight the pessimism demons!

Dreamer
02-29-2004, 01:03 AM
I wish I played games this good!
Anyway, personally I think you went too far unless you had a perfect read on him that he was an absolute idiot.
Which he was.
I think for every time you go to 9 bets without the nuts and win you will be shown the nuts 5 times.
Even by idiots.
The 5th bet would have been enough for me.
A few years ago I played QQ with a flop of AQQ.
We soon got heads up and raised like crazy on the flop with me just calling on the 5th bet hoping he had AA and would pay me off on the turn and river.
we went 5 bets on the turn with me again calling.
You can guess the river card.
Not only that I checked to him knowing I was beaten.
Not only that I paid him off just to see the 2 aces.
Probably the worst mistake I have ever made at poker, I knew I was beaten but just had to see it, how pathetic.

Any way my point is 9 bets without the nuts seems like negative EV even against idiots.

Tommy Angelo
02-29-2004, 02:12 AM
"You should have 10-bet and folded to an 11-bet."

Absolutely.

HDPM
02-29-2004, 02:25 AM
Calling one bet on the river in a big pot when you have quads is not the worst mistake you have made in poker. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Although I see what you are saying. It is kind of pathetic. But if you fold and an idiot shows A-K you have to kill yourself.

elysium
02-29-2004, 04:57 AM
hi andy
that's an incredible story. i would have lost my read on the turn. obviously, he doesn't know very well, do he? i had a hand like the flush hand mentioned in your post. you remember these because your read is so strong, and of course, you don't have the nuts but bet them close to it. it's rare though. you only put a read like that on the more solid players in the first place. when they go skitzie on occasion, it's memorable.

andy, i could never do that. let me look at that again....8 bet. (lol)