Commerce 9-18: Checkraised on the turn by a little old lady

[Dynasty]

Clarkmeister, Ed Miller (majorkong), and I arrived at the Commerce on Thusday evening. Ed and I split our time at the 20-40 and no-limit tables early in the evening while Clarkmeister braved the 40-80 games.

This hand was played at about 3:00am while half asleep. As always, the 9-18 game here at the Commerce was ridiculously good. It always seems looser than the typical Vegas 3-6 or 4-8 game.

The little old lady in question had been playing many hands but had shown very little aggression. She was losing a decent amount but seemed to be used to it.

In less than one hour of play, I've quickly won a couple stacks.

The hand:

UTG and EP called. One MP called. Litle Old Lady called two off the button. Cutoff called. None of these players were any good. They were all playing a bunch of hands for multiple bets pre-flop and going too far with those hands. I'm on the button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif and raise. The Big Blind and all the rest called the raise. 7 players to the flop for two bets each.

The flop is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

It gets checked to me and I bet. Big Blind, EP, MP, and Little Old Lady call. They could have anything.

The turn is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gif

It gets checked to me and I bet again. Everybody folds to the Little Old Lady who confidently check-raises me.

What's your play for the rest of the hand.

[J.A.Sucker]

Call twice. She either has you beaten or she doesn't. I think that this is my best post, ever.

Take care, D.

[Diplomatdcm]

I would Raise, my guess is she has A-9.

[DcifrThs]

lol, i bet the expression on your face was worth the cost of the hand for that little old lady!!

although it has been pointed out that a9 is a very viable holding, it is difficult to justify reraising a little old lady who has shown NO aggression at all and then comes to life with a confident c-r. i'm gunna go with the "best post ever" and vote for calling her down. 2 big bets to see a hand you probably beat but may be way behind against (to the tune of 4 outs).

again, just call her down and take the pot. no need to risk bets when your calls can be way correct vs. slightly wrong (reraising a far better hand which would happen oh, lets say 1 out of every 4/5 times so it'll cost ya a few extra vs. just getting those 2 from her)

thats my vote
Barron

[bobgreen]

She doesn't fear AK because she doesn't put players on hands, not because she can beat AK.

She's not aggressive so if she can beat AK, and you reraise, she will not 4-bet without AAA. So if you reraise, the most you can lose is one additional bet.

So if you reraise 100 times in this situation, you lose one every time she has a set and win one every time she has two pair. Because she's not aggressive she'll have a set slightly more often than a random distribution, but not as often as she'll have two pair and thus, raise you must.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Dynasty,

I'd pop it one more time here for value. The only thing that has you beat is a set. If you're worried about a set or going to hell for three betting a little old lady, then calling the turn and river are fine too /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
Call twice. She either has you beaten or she doesn't. I think that this is my best post, ever.

Take care, D.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm laughing so hard a full can of beer just came out of my nose!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[GuyOnTilt]

I fully agree with this post. I would reraise.

GoT

[Ray Zee]

fold. you probably will see a set of aces or kings and wont even be drawing live. your just another sucker with just another sucker paying off little old ladies.

[felson]

I would call twice, because I am loose and passive.

[Diplomatdcm]

Ok, I have played with passive players, but are there really that many that are passive enouh not to raise Kings or Aces preflop? And if a player is that passive would they check raise the turn? I could, and probably am completly wrong, but I have not run into any players like that, I would concider 99 an more likely olding than AA. I am way off base?

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your play for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reraise, then five-bet and fold to a six-bet? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

How close does "very little" aggression come to "none"? If it's very close, then I call down because I'm not very good and wouldn't make this laydown in a million years. If it's not very close, then, "RERAI!" and see what happens from there.

[mike l.]

my read is that her type play a set fast on the flop. so she has a worse aces up and you need to 3 bet and punish her for drawing to A7 or A9.

[SLEEPER]

"The little lady had shown litte aggression"

What does that mean? Did you see any hand in which she raised with? If so, did she always have the nuts, or an extremely strong hand? If not, I would reraise her.... if so, I would listen to Ray, and I would fold. Wait until later to collect your pots!

Crazy little old ladies, what are they thinking?

[Dreamer]

I don`t agree, no pre flop raise, maybe 77 or 99 but smells like A9 or A7
Even if she has a set you still have 4 outs on the river.
This adds up to at least calling her down.
Unless you have a very good read.

[andyfox]

She called when a king was on the board and check-raised when an ace came. Yikes. Too big a pot to fold though. Crying crawl and crawl again on the river and expect to lose to a set of 9s or 7s. If she's got A-7 or A-9 or Tc-8c wonderful. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[joedot]

If you fold top two pair in this spot, I've lost all respect for you and am checkraising you every hand until you stop being a wuss

[joedot]

If you fold top two pair in this spot, I've lost all respect for you and am checkraising you every hand until you stop being a wuss

my advice, call, and then call the river or bet if checked to

[sam h]

I would make it three bets and bet the river. Sure, you'll lose to a set of sevens or nines often, but there's a good chance she just has aces up. And the key thing is that you'll not often be paying more, since even with a set little old ladies don't make it four bets on the turn or checkraise the river when an A and a K are on board in this situation against the PFR. So really you are just threebetting for value, figuring aces up is more likely than a set. And really, even if you think the converse is true, you might as well three bet and check behind on the river if you don't fill. Though I would probably bet the river.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
So if you reraise 100 times in this situation, you lose one every time she has a set and win one every time she has two pair. Because she's not aggressive she'll have a set slightly more often than a random distribution, but not as often as she'll have two pair and thus, raise you must.

[/ QUOTE ]

In addtion, even if you think she's more likely to have a set, then you should just raise and check behind on the river without improvement.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister, Ed Miller (majorkong), and I arrived at the Commerce on Thusday evening. Ed and I split our time at the 20-40 and no-limit tables early in the evening while Clarkmeister braved the 40-80 games.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can't wait to see you guys /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gif

It gets checked to me and I bet again. Everybody folds to the Little Old Lady who confidently check-raises me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This type of Los Angeles player thinks most raisers have AK so they initially put you on big slick and play accordingly. Let's say she has a worse two pair. She checks and calls because she just can't toss two pair even though she thinks you have a better two pair. Let's say she has a set. She should realize that by betting out you raise and she reraises. However, in Los Angeles even LOL's like to checkraise with a set. We'd say a set is likely.

However, if you reraise now she puts you on AA or KK. So the reraise will slow down a set and gain value from two pair (a worse two pair doesn't fold here).

On the river check behind (she will rarely bet her set now) unless you spot a weakness tell.

~ Rick and Hero

[Indian Ocean]

[Rick Nebiolo]

ray,

you are thinking of little old ladies from the gardena days. there is a new type of little old lady in LA.

~ rick

[ShortStack]

Raise on the turn and raise on the river. Bet your hand. I hate disagreeing with Ray Zee. What was the outcome?

[King High]

What kind of hands has she been playing is it possible she has KQc or even K7c it now has the nut flush with a pair or two? I would raise for info.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Ray. I would say there is a zero percent chance of Dynasty folding here.

Even if he is beat, he's not folding with outs in this pot.

BTW, I am going to try to get to Montana this summer to see you, Jason Brown and the Shadow.

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Indian Ocean]

[Ray Zee]

i probably wouldnt fold either. check and call. but it really would depend on my read of how unaggressive she plays.

come on up its nice here in the summer. best golf courses you ever seen if thats what you plan on doing. come by car the drive is awesome. hit grand teton, yellowstone and glacier.

[Dynasty]

I'm sorry for the delay in posting the results. Despite having a computer in the hotel room, I didn't manage to get online. A whole group of 2+2ers (including mike l., Josh W., Andy Fox, Gabe, and Rick Nebiolo) got together and played a 10 hour 4-8 "home game" at the Bicycle (where I managed to drop a personal record of 86.5 big bets) on Saturday. On Sunday, Clarkmeister, Ed, and I hit the road for Hawaiian Gardens and then Vegas shortly after checking out.

So, on to the hand. On the turn, I called the little old lady with the intention of calling her down. Even if I thought reraising was +EV in the short term, I consider the option of not pushing around any exceptionally weak opponents.

The river is: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

The little old lady bet and I called. She had A7o for a turned two pair and I took the pot.

I never considered folding as a serious option. Ray Zee must have unusual experience with tight old ladies.

[andyfox]

"managed to drop a personal record of 86.5 big bets"

Phew, glad to hear I wasn't the big loser. But that's only because I left early. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Great seeing you and the guys.

Regards,
Andy

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I never considered folding as a serious option. Ray Zee must have unusual experience with tight old ladies.

[/ QUOTE ]

He must have had experience in the old Gardena pre-holdem days and hasn't seen that even tight LOLs can become LAPs (Loose, Aggressive Players). But in those days things were different.

Around 1985 (pre holdem) I flew into Los Angeles arriving early evening for a week of mostly lab work at Hughes/Huge Aircraft Company. I had the lab reserved at noon the next day so I go to sleep around 8:00 p.m. (or 11:00 p.m. EST), which was about my bedtime when I actually could sleep like a normal person. I wake up at 3:00 a.m. well rested so I figure why not shower and dress and beat the traffic to the Bike for a little early morning poker when the games are good.

When I get there about 4:00 a.m there are about twelve 3/6 lowball games going. The jackpot was huge for that game, I think around 4500 (lowball jackpots are easy to hit).

My second hand I get a one card draw to a 62A-Joker. It was a kill pot and I make my 6-4. The LOL in seat five only put in two raises after the draw head up and then tabled her wheel. Nice $2954 jackpot for me.

OTOH, with so many other games going someone else could have snagged it any minute so why delay ;-).

~ Rick

PS Stop complaining about your 85 big bet loss. You're still almost even after taking all those racks off the table last year in the Pineapple game. Plus it covered the rake for all of us /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[2005]

"Ray Zee must have unusual experience with tight old ladies."

I wonder if I'm the only one who picked up on this thinly veiled dig, or if I'm just imagining it. Anyways, there is an LOL in the game I regularly play in who is loose preflop, but won't raise you after the flop without a big hand and has to have a monster to check-raise(actually, come to think of it, I don't think she's ever check-raised me). This is exactly how I would have played it against her, and I model my image of LOL's after her until I see otherwise.

Gavin