40-80 defending blinds question

[ZeroGee]

For those of you used to playing in various aggressive upper-mid-limit games where pots are almost always raised, do you defend in the big blind to a raise with 85s or 86s? I found this coming up twice last night, and although I decided to defend both times, because of the nature of the table, someone then 3-bet, and another person would yell "Gambolll!" and cap.

Both times I won ridiculously huge pots (by flopping two pair, and hitting two pair on the turn), but I wonder what the long-term expectation of calling even one raise is with that hand in the BB.

Thanks,
ZG

[devinthedude]

Search for posts by Tommy Angelo

[ZeroGee]

Tommy makes up his expectation in different ways which I can't do. He can afford to play more conservatively from the blinds.

[Tommy Angelo]

"Tommy makes up his expectation in different ways which I can't do."

I'd be scratching my head over this sentence even if my name wasn't in it. Are you saying that I willfully, knowingly and consistently make wrong choices before the flop?



Tommy

[ZeroGee]

On the contrary. It's about edge.

You have a much larger edge in post-flop play. I lately have been running incredibly well, yet still without much card sense.

I'm attempting to express the idea that your edge comes from decisions made later in the hand, and that for players like me who can't grab those extra half-bets throughout the hand, I need to be involved in more pots with a larger outcome at the end, since it's difficult to pick up the small pots.

Or am I completely wrong here? Educate me.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm attempting to express the idea that your edge comes from decisions made later in the hand, and that for players like me who can't grab those extra half-bets throughout the hand, I need to be involved in more pots with a larger outcome at the end, since it's difficult to pick up the small pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the opposite is true. If you are not an excellent player that can play very well post flop, you need to play extra tight and be involved in less pots.

The argument has always been Tommy is such a good player he could play more hands from the blinds if he chose because he could extract the maximum from the hand post flop turning it into a +EV hand.

[Tommy Angelo]

"for players like me who can't grab those extra half-bets throughout the hand, I need to be involved in more pots with a larger outcome at the end, since it's difficult to pick up the small pots.

Or am I completely wrong here? Educate me."

I don't know but is sounds to me like you are thinking exactly backwards. If your postflop play is suspect, wouldn't you want to play FEWER pots?

And by that same token, if I (or anyone) really does enjoy a significant postflop edge over his typical opponents, then that would be a reason to want to play more pots, not fewer. Yet I am almost always the tightest preflop player in the game. So something here doesn't quite add up. Either I don't have a postflop edge, or I am really stupid for playing so tight before the flop.

Or my edge comes first and foremost from tight play preflop, by starting with higher cards than they do, on average. Then it all makes sense. So does not calling raises with 8-6.

[Gabe]

“You have a much larger edge in post-flop play.”

This means he should play looser pre-flop than an average player, not tighter.

As to your original question, it depends on several things: How many players are already in the pot. How aggressive is the game. Etc.

[LuckyBellar]

A game that has several limpers who then reraise or cap a late position raise will offer many better opportunities to win large pots than calling a raise in the big blind with 8 5s or 8 6s and getting to four bets. However, a more passive game with several limpers and one raiser give this hand a much better chance. It can be enjoyable and profitable to play more hands in these loose agressive games but it is much more fun with position.

[andyfox]

If I had 8-5 and I decided to defend and then someone 3-bet and another player capped, I wouldn't have won a big pot because I would have folded for two more bets. And once this had happened, I would have felt I was in the type of game where 8-6 wasn't so much better than 8-5 that I would have done it again.

I would think playing from the blind for 4-bets with 8-high doesn't have very much longterm EV.

As Gabe points out, "it depends." If the raiser is weak-tightish and will let me win more than what I should, I'll defend more. If he's tough and aggressive, I'll defend less. If there are other players involved, they have to be figured into the equation, especially once they've limpreraised and limpcapped.

If anyone asked me for general advice, I'd say fold 8 high from the blinds all the time when it's raised.

[Softrock]

Frankly I would much rather defend the blinds with middle suited connectors than with hands like KJo, ATo, QJo, etc. You are much less likely to be dominated. As noted by others it depends greatly on how many other players. However, I think it may have been Sklansky, not sure, but one of the respected writers notes that you are getting 3 1/2 to one calling heads up from the BB and if you are not against a big pair you have a big chunk of the deck.

Be judicious, but I think you can play these hands from the BB with some regularity. Now the SB is alot different. First, you have at least one further person to act (ie. you don't close the action) and it costs you 1 1/2 bets instead of one - big difference.

[mikelow]

Generally I don't defend blinds with hands this weak. And unless really outplay everyone at the table, you shouldn't strain to defend unless you suspect a steal.

Another problem is your lack of position.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Another problem is your lack of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's so much easier to outplay people in position, isn't it? I've been noticing that more and more lately.

--turnipmonster