I feel like such a calling station ...

[elindauer]

15-30 on party. Most players are fairly passive and loose.
9-handed.


UTG limps. Next up limps. Next guy limps. Button limps. SB completes. I check with:

A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif


The flop comes:

K /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Oh well. SB checks. I check, prepared to fold. UTG bets. call. call. SB folds, and I change my plan and call.

Turn:

9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Oh well. I check, ready to fold. UTG bets. Now, to my surprise, everybody folds back to me. I change my mind again and call.

River:

4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Oh well. I check, thinking fold. UTG bets. I look at the pot size, note the busted flush draw, and -again- change my mind and make the crying call. I'm embarrased. How bad was this?

[SoBeDude]

What seems bad here is you don't have a plan. Seems like you're just playing by the 'seat of your pants'.

Why did you change your mind and call each time? What are you thinking/reasoning? Now if you were heads up and you put an opponent on a draw or bluff, making the consious choice to call him down is fine. Its a plan given your read of your opponent.

But given the number of opponents and your lack of read or plan, I think you played badly.

Just my thoughts,

-Scott

[elindauer]

Hi SoBeDude,

Here was my logic on each street.

Flop:

My A outs may well be tainted, and I can't call with just the gutshot, especially on this two-tone board. I was surprised that so many player got involved though, and I figured I was getting the correct odds to look for the miracle offsuit J, given that if I caught, I might make quite a bit on it, and I do have the queen of spades in case the J spades comes off, the ace of spades, etc.

Turn:

I missed, I'm done. I'm definitely not getting odds to draw against this field. But now everybody folds! Hmmm... now my ace outs look much better, and maybe even my queen outs. Certainly I have to worry much less if I catch but the card is a spade. Decent sized pot. Let's draw.

Check-raising never entered my mind. I just don't see people betting into large fields and folding to a check-raise heads up.


River:

I missed. I hadn't really considered the possibility that I might be ahead up to this point, but... big pot. I could see AJs or some other missed draw. I think I have to call.


Does this seem reasonable to you? I'm usually much more decisive, this hand was unusual, which is why I posted it. What do you think of my thought process?

Thanks for the advice.

-Eric

[SoBeDude]

I'm curious to hear others opinions, but I think I'm folding on the flop here about every time.

You really have only 3 clean outs and I don't think the pot odds are there to keep playing.

And remember you can hit your jack and still lose to the flush.

-Scott

[gonores]

9:1 closing the action with three outs to the nuts, an overcard you have no reason to believe is not good (even a queen might be good enough, given the preflop action, even though it's loose passive), and a backdoor 2nd nut flush draw? Folding seems real bad here. I'd be inclined to bet here and see where I'm at.

[DcifrThs]

when a passive loose player calls utg and bets both flop turn and river, do you really think he's on a draw??

loose passive players are just that loose (they play anything) and passive (they are weak unless they have a hand in which case they bet). i'd peel of ONE card here MAYBE, but even then its almost certainly -EV since you're dead to 3 outs (possibly). but even drawing at all 4 its still -EV town.

turn call and river call need some serious revisiting and "never doing again" IF the utg is loose passive...loose passive players don't bet draws...they call with them. they bet their hands. plain and simple, which is why its great having them in your game.

if you're read was wrong and he was NOT loose passive and instead aggressive with his draws then asjs is the only hand you beat he'd bet with (or asxs which is a possibility from a loose passive player utg but again he would be less likely to bet his draws and even less likely to fire all three barrels)

questions? comments?
-Barron

[DcifrThs]

bet? wow, i would never considered that into a loose passive field...why do that when you KNOW you'll be called, youre way out of position with no reads on anybody??

my play here is c-c or c-f with the c-f being the more highly wieghted action given the two suit and only 3 "clean" outs.

question? comments?
-Barron

[gonores]

Clean up my outs, namely my aces (maybe even get an unsuited As to fold) and find out where I'm at. It also adds a bit of unpredictability to my play (I don't always have "it" or a super-solid draw to bet). At a loose-passive 15/30 (as opposed to a loose-passive 1/2), a king will almost always let you know if he is out there. Too many ways for me to win this sizeable pot for me to just give up without a fight, and if I'm fighting, I wanna bet.

[Buckshot]

[ QUOTE ]
What seems bad here is you don't have a plan. Seems like you're just playing by the 'seat of your pants'.


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought in all of poker there is no true "plan" or answer, other than, I'm playing this hand or I'm not playing this hand at the outset. If you will, there are no x and y correlations when playing a hand. You can flowchart the process, but you can't pinpoint it on a graph. I thought it was widely common to use the practice "it depends" to loosely and basically define our decisions.

This is especially true of hand reading skills. If you decide at the outset the player has "AK" just because he/she raised preflop, then you're doomed to the limitations of your own narrow mindedness and inflexibility.

Texture, context, flavor and opponent. Let's also not forget something called pot odds. These little pieces of the puzzle should always be taken into consideration before one sets on what you would call a "plan". Once each part is taken into account those parts can then be put together as a whole and thusly a person can carry out their "plan" as each street develops.

I think he thought out the "plan" very well. It could be that UTG hit a set of 9's on the turn, or that he might have a straight already, or he paired the 9 to go along with his flush draw. It could even be what he thought about a busted draw and his AQ was good. In either case, telling him he's playing by the "seat of his pants" because he didn't have a "plan" and that's playing badly is like, well, I was thinking something along the lines of getting to the west coast from the east coast without a map, but that doesn't jibe with what I'm thinking. Anyway, I hope you get my drift.

So, in closing, I just want to say that "plans" as good as they are for DNA, they just don't work in the world of poker as an absolute, IMHO.

~stephen

[DcifrThs]

yes and no.

yes because what you say is true for the most part.

but NO because not once did he even THINK about what the bettor had or could possibly have as a loose/passive player. you don't start by saying raise = ak and thats what he's got...you start at a wide range of hands and with each play you narrow down what his possible hands might be. I think having a "plan" is CRUCIAL to success at this game. especially short handed and especially always! when he called on the flop he didn't think well im going to fold for a bet on the turn or call/c-r/bet out if i hit my draw or whatever...he was literally saying oh, action to me, hmm, i'll call it again...oh wow, he bet the river, i guess he might have a busted draw, i'll call again...

c'mon you know that is not a "plan" and nobody has set in stone "plans" but you have to have something in your mind when you react! here, there was little or nothing and just the seat of his pants, and YES this playing in this instance by the seat of his pants was a horrible way to play...not just "bad" as you said.

this poster cost himself more than an hours worth of work when he had by far the worst of it maybe90-95% of the time.

if he thought well on the flop i ll call and then since i'm going to call again on the turn i'll bet out the flop and fold for a raise or take down that nice pot. or if he calls on the turn i'll give up and c-f or maybe get a free showdown...

NONE of those thoughts were occurring and THAT is what sobedude meant by a plan.

-Barron

my ONE question to this poster is, "DO LOOSE PASSIVE PLAYERS BET DRAWS??"

[DcifrThs]

You're really thinking well but for a much different game!!

do loose passive players pay attention to whether you have "it" or a draw? NO. do loose passive players simply call with top pair? YES, especially something like kxs where he just wants a cheap showdown.

so now there goes two reasons for betting.

and even if the k DOES "let you know" he's out there are you really going to call the raise and continue on with no help? seems like now youre just asking to put MORE bets in when you don't have anything, be it "it" a draw or a pair...ace high is what you got here and while you may "clean up some outs" you won't get the actual hands to fold...

not only that...bottom pair with ace kicker will call you no question.

i think maybe in a tougher game you can bet here if you've been squeeky tight for a good while to mix it up and fold to a raise or reraise bluff or call and bet out, or do any number of things b/c your opponents WILL pay attention and WILL toss bottom pair ace kicker.

also, 6 bets is NOT a "sizeable pot" in any way shape or form and now you've expended 1/6th (now 1/7th) of the pot against looseys who will just call! no need to try to win a 6sb pot that hard.

here it just seems you're a bit backwards.

-Barron

[Indian Ocean]

I did exctally (in 15/30) what you did with AKo from SB when board read QQT and the raiser bet the flop i called(by the turn it was heads up).

turn is blank. he bets. i call. river is blank.. he bets i call. and I take it down with AKo. he had KJo. i just sensed something was off so i called him down.. if you sensed something funny.. go for it... it's all DEPENDS on the player and the situation.. there is not specific answer...

[gonores]

You may find the occasional player at 15/30 that won't raise with TP and the (more) occasional player that isn't paying attention, but you're not going to find a full game that has these characteristics.

You can construe a lot of situations in which you can lose this hand. Hell, given the time and inclination, I could probably come up with a way to have AQ drawing dead here. Point is there are lots of ways to see this board as an opportunity rather than a threat, and lots of ways to to figure yourself as drawing uber-live.

If the game is so loose passive that your assumptions hold true (calling down with Kx, zero chance of taking the pot now), then there is absolutely no reason to not raise this preflop in the first place. The way I see it, I'm debating the preflop raise the way it is.

[ActionBob]

Eric

It looks to me like you took each spot, thought through it, and made a rational decision at each point. Some of the decisions are close (I havent thought too much about what I would have done) but I think you certainly thought through each spot well and acted accordingly.

This type of hand is exactly why you cant just go into the hand with a "plan". You have to adjust your decisions and thoughts at every point based on your opponents, your pot odds, etc sometimes.

-ActionBob

[ActionBob]

You really have only 3 clean outs and I don't think the pot odds are there to keep playing.

There's a lot more to the decision than just "clean" outs. He's got 3 certain outs, thats the easy part. At this point, he's got to think he has anywhere from 3 to 7 possible outs. Of course we cant just count all the outs as good, but we cant just discard them either. You've got to combine all the clean out, the probable outs, the potential outs, and the unlikley outs. Then "fudge" your odds a bit as needed and go from there.

Its certainly an inexact science, but a very important part of the game to learn and understand.

Just my 2 cents.

-ActionBob

[Buckshot]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't start by saying raise = ak and thats what he's got...you start at a wide range of hands and with each play you narrow down what his possible hands might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you didn't read my post carefully enough. I did not advocate putting a person on one hand and one hand only.

Our hero did have a plan here and that plan seemed to be to take the action as it came to him into account before he made his decision. He said, "I check, prepared to fold. UTG bets. call. call. SB folds, and I change my plan and call."

[ QUOTE ]
NONE of those thoughts were occurring

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he did have thoughts, you're chosing to ignore them. The one decent thought/point you make is whether a loose passive player bets draws. That is certainly something to think about.

[ QUOTE ]
and THAT is what sobedude meant by a plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you give Sobe a little too much credit here. Perhaps you should give the hand another once over and tell us what you would've done. I'm not saying our hero played it well or that he played it poorly. I'm saying just because hero had AQ and there's no Ace or Queen on the flop it's auto muck time and THAT was what Sobe was referring to.

~stephen

[SA125]

From what I've seen, SoBeD's responses are based on solid play. Without going into the "what if's" about this specific hand, I agree with his take on the lack of a plan.

A plan obviously isn't having a specific set of circumstances and plays. It's a general course. Which should include - If I'm not sure he has anything, but I have nothing, most of the time I should fold and save the BB's for when I have a better chance to win.

There are valid arguements for picking up small pots, how many outs, pot odds, etc.

The plan is to, in general, play hands that you know have a good, rather than possible, chance of winning. Over the long term, that will help you get the better of things.

The poster asked if he was becoming a calling station. Folding when you have nothing, instead of paying BB's, can avoid that. In general.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you don't start by saying raise = ak and thats what he's got...you start at a wide range of hands and with each play you narrow down what his possible hands might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you didn't read my post carefully enough. I did not advocate putting a person on one hand and one hand only.

Our hero did have a plan here and that plan seemed to be to take the action as it came to him into account before he made his decision. He said, "I check, prepared to fold. UTG bets. call. call. SB folds, and I change my plan and call."

[ QUOTE ]
NONE of those thoughts were occurring

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he did have thoughts, you're chosing to ignore them. The one decent thought/point you make is whether a loose passive player bets draws. That is certainly something to think about.

[ QUOTE ]
and THAT is what sobedude meant by a plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you give Sobe a little too much credit here. Perhaps you should give the hand another once over and tell us what you would've done. I'm not saying our hero played it well or that he played it poorly. I'm saying just because hero had AQ and there's no Ace or Queen on the flop it's auto muck time and THAT was what Sobe was referring to.

~stephen

[/ QUOTE ]

As can be expected, your post got me thinking and i am now going over the hand because i may have been too much of an [censored]/ not enough of a poster.

so here goes. loose passive game. utg limps meaning two cards, most likely in the face catagory. next and next limp, again, two cards, buttons in sb completes hero checks w/ aqo.

6 players take flop with 6 bets and a bunch of loosey gooseys. kt8 two spades hero has the queen. hero DOES think check fold (barron gets a -1). but then is looking at 9sb's and the miracle jack would result in a few big bets making implied odds juuuuuusstt enough to warrent the call although i'd tag this on the "loose call" hangar b/c of the danger of the js or just any spade hitting the turn.

hero did NOT however think what does utg have. here i would honestly fold. i don't like calling on two suited flops chasing miracles and i never did like it. i may be giving something up here but its not a lot and is a marginally profitable call at best. so if hero=me, hand ends here.

i'm NOT hero so we go on. i would here be thinking that utg has at least the king and/or something better and will not release so no bluffing/outplaying utg seems possible. the only time ive seen looseys bet draws would be if he/she had the QsJs here since its such a good draw and they're not thinking "semibluff" there thinking "ooo, i'm gunna make SOMETHING here so lets bet it." BUT hero has Qs so thats out.

Turn comes 9c completing the qj straight (or j7 but come on now). hero checks and again plans to fold but SURPRISE all fold to hero. hero now thinks, hey, wait a sec, i may have the best hand here afterall OR thinks i can peel another one off since no spade came. THIS is where i find the biggest fault of the hand in terms of ev of a play. calling 1 big bet into a 5bb pot with absolutely nothing and a draw to possibly dead cards does not seem like anything good. PLUS we STILL have this loose player BETTING AT US!!!

loose player betting is not a good sign. FOLD THE TURN! BUT, barron again gets a "-1" because hero DID think 'check/fold' but changed "plan" again so i was again wrong and conceed.

river blankity blank blank, BLANK. hero checks and calls. before hero calls there are either 6/7 big bets in pot so in order for a call to be correct hero must think he's winning better than 1 in 7 or 8 times. at the very least more than 12.5%. this is second biggest mistake of hand (maybe first, maybe tied, but big mistake nonetheless). if hero wins here i'd say it would be in the range of 1 in 20 or more tries given the action.

I have yet to meet a loose PASSIVE player who bets less than ace high THREE TIMES into MANY PEOPLE two out of those three times(the third time was heads up).

since there is no way to c-rbluff here, and no way you're winning the original plan on the FLOP should be instituted and check fold. again though, barron gets a -1 b/c hero again had thoughts and plans to fold.

NOTE THOUGH: barron gets +1 or +2 because hero did NOT ever think "what does utg have to be betting with." and to me, thats the key. he would have to be betting..umm...well, a7s for hero to take the pot...or aqs but hero has the spade so what hand in the world could hero beat...literally a7s is it...1 hand...and you're gunna call with aqo ace high to win 8 bets on the HOPE and PRAYER that the bettor literally has a8???

i'm sorry but that doesn't seem even remotely close to worth it. "embarrased" well we both are, hero for the play, barron for his poorly worded, not double checked post as buckshot pointed out.

i hope this post clears things up.

What say you Buck?
-Barron

[DcifrThs]

Are you saying you would raise 5 limpers (including sb) with AQo in a loose passive game? if so then we have much to disagree upon. why make their later street play remotely correct when you have a hand that prefers small pots shorthanded etc...

further, even if there were 7 full outs, what do you think of the river/turn calls? calling on the turn 1 bb to win 6-8 bb's ??

how about the river? calling with literally nothing when the only viable hand you can beat is a7s?

you have to adjust for the situation...i think i've said this maybe100 times in this thread but to me its the most important point: A LOOSE PASSIVE PLAYER IS BETTING INTO MANY PEOPLE. thats it...thats all i need to know to fold the flop and if not the flop then for sure the turn (ok i'm exaggerating but you get my point).

so what say you?
-Barron

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
why make their later street play remotely correct when you have a hand that prefers small pots shorthanded etc...


[/ QUOTE ]

Because I can get 5 more SB in the pot with the best hand. They made the mistake of limping with crap, so I capitalize on this mistake.

I'd need to see the action before I figured out how to play the rest of the hand....adjusting to the situation and the such.

[ QUOTE ]
A LOOSE PASSIVE PLAYER IS BETTING INTO MANY PEOPLE. thats it...thats all i need to know to fold the flop and if not the flop then for sure the turn (ok i'm exaggerating but you get my point).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you are exaggerating here, but I hope that it is that you only take this one piece of info into account. Tons of other factors need to be considered here.

[Buckshot]

Ok. Now that we're on the same page it can be agreed that he did think out his plan and executed as he thought fit. This is not to say that the plan was a best laid one, but let's just leave it at it was at least thought out.

I'm not sure I'd call the turn, but there's certainly merit for it. If it were me playing the hand I would most likely raise preflop and bet any flop. I would then act accordingly.

~stephen

[SoBeDude]

I think you give Sobe a little too much credit here. Perhaps you should give the hand another once over and tell us what you would've done. I'm not saying our hero played it well or that he played it poorly. I'm saying just because hero had AQ and there's no Ace or Queen on the flop it's auto muck time and THAT was what Sobe was referring to.

thanks for putting words in my mouth steve.

that is not what I said or meant. not by a mile.

[Kenshin]

[ QUOTE ]

1.Because I can get 5 more SB in the pot with the best hand. They made the mistake of limping with crap, so I capitalize on this mistake.


2. [ QUOTE ]
A LOOSE PASSIVE PLAYER IS BETTING INTO MANY PEOPLE.

[/ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

1. I dislike your logic here immensely. Yes you have the best hand in all likelyhood; however, despite this edge, you will win the pot substantially less than 1/2 of the time against 5 opponents. Thus, you are adding money to the pot when you are an underdog (against your opponents combined) to win. Additionally, you provide the correct drawing odds to your straight/flush chasing opponents and you fail to thin the field by raising.

2. I generally run for the hills when a loose passive player wakes from the dead and start betting. What type of hand would a habitual caller lead out with? Certainly one I have no desire to go to war against.

kenshin

[gonores]

1. Your logic is off here. You only need to win the pot 1 in 6 times to make this bet worthwhile....and that's gonna happen, with overlay. If the rule was only to put money in when you expect to win more than 50% of the time, you wouldn't even raise kings from this position, maybe even aces.

Dude....9:1 closing the action, and you're gonna make money when you hit. Counting only your 3 jacks and your 2nd nut backdoor flush, you're still getting close to good odds here. If I checked here, this is an easy call.

[mikelow]

[elindauer]

Sorry for the delay.

Bettor turns over (gulp) Js2s. My hand is good.

Thanks for the insightful commentary.