First Mid-High Stakes Post Ever: Teach Me, Wise Ones

[The Bear]

I'm trying to transition to higher limits over the next couple of months. This is a hand from my first ever 15/30 session that had me a little confused.

Party 15/30 (10-handed) Game is much more aggressive than the 3/6 games I'm used to, but looser than I expected and altogether not super tough.

I am in LMP w/ K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif. EMP limps, MP limps and I raise. BB calls and so do the limpers.

(4 players for 8.25 SB)
Flop: J /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB leads straight out, both other players call and the action is on me. I decide to call, planning to raise on the turn if a blank falls. Am I off-base here or is this reasonable?

(4 players for 6 BB)

Turn: [J /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif] 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Now the BB checks. EMP bets and MP raises.

Fold, call, or reraise? And what's the plan of attack for the rest of the hand?

Thanks in advance.

[J.A.Sucker]

Your preflop play is fine.

You flopped great, and there is a fairly large pot developing. The bet coming from 1st to act is a little interesting. I would raise here, hoping that he 3 bets and clears out the field.

This turn action stinks to high heaven, but it's the internet, right? I would call, call 2 more if it's capped, and hope that your flush is good on the river if you hit it, which it should be. I suspect that a 4 is out there, and it's even possible that some screwball saw the turn with 66, but you can't lay this one down here, IMO.

[Kenshin]

Did you jump directly from 3-6 to 15-30? If so, I suggest that you transition more gradually.

On the turn, the pot offers you 4.5-1 on a 5-1 flush draw plus the added outs of a J. I think you have to call here and fold on the river if you fail to improve. I would also play a flush on the river very cautiously, in case the mp caught his full house.

Kenshin

[risen]

Well I don't know if I qualify as wise on this forum (Definitely not in fact) But I've been quiet lately and trying to get back in the swing of things.

1. 4 people are in the pot before you and you're raising with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif ? What for? You're not going to narrow the field. This is a drawing hand, you want to see the flop cheap. If you get reraised you are dominated without a doubt. I think a limp is a better play preflop (Or of course fold, but on this forum you're supposed to fold everything /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

But now we're at the flop, The BB has bet into you, if you're not going to take him at his word (That he has a 4 and is unafraid of you) and fold, you need to pop him right now and take control of the hand. With your preflop raise you have no problem representing AJ and you want to charge these people trying to draw on you. If you get 3 bet, You can lay this one down, by just calling you have no idea where you are in this hand.

On the turn, what seems to be a blank has fallen yet it's two bets to you. You can't call 2 cold here. Looks like slowplayed trips and it's not worth $60 to draw to your second nut flush as you might come up a loser anyway. If you had raised the flop, you'd have quite a lot more information, but for now you have to assume you're second or third best.

[ZeroGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Or of course fold, but on this forum you're supposed to fold everything

[/ QUOTE ]

The right answer isn't usually "fold" because we like to say it. It's because playing dominated hands is the surest recipe to disaster. If you want to be aggressive, or "mix things up," you can do some fancy plays once in awhile. Most readers of this forum think once in awhile means once every 10 hands.

Countless times we'll see people post, "I play a tight aggressive style," and then proceed to talk about how they limped with J9o. They'll then say, "apart from the preflop action, how did I play it?"

The preflop action is why you even have a question!

Stop being so greedy. If you want to be a winning poker player, play tight. No, you're not the second coming of Johnny Chan, and you can't always "outplay" everyone after the flop in limit. Play tightly pre-flop, and this game plays itself.

[Diplomat]

I think the pre-flop raise is close, but fine.

I would raise the flop for reasons JA sited.

I would seriously consider three-betting the turn.

-Diplomat

[J.A.Sucker]

I'll tell you why raising the KJs is a good idea preflop.

1. You want to try your hardest to get last position throughout the hand, even if it "costs" you money...

2. ... but it won't cost you any money, because you have a good volume hand.

3. Since it's a good volume hand, you can tie people to the pot if you flop a monster.

4. Also, you can portray a bigger hand than you actually have.

I raise this hand here, and I don't think it's close.

The turn is close, but I think calling is the best play.

[Pipedream]

I would tend to make a raise right on the flop. Your hand is still vulnerable and there are a few cards you definately don't want to see hit the turn: Ace,Queen,Club. You should get the money in now and make any draws pay, although if the board were rainbow, your play would be more attractive. For your situation, I would call the turn raise. It seems pretty likely trip 4's are out there but you still have a flush and Jack draw. The decision on the river depends on what card falls and the actions of the other players.

Pipedream

[Kenshin]

[ QUOTE ]

The preflop action is why you even have a question!

Stop being so greedy. If you want to be a winning poker player, play tight. No, you're not the second coming of Johnny Chan, and you can't always "outplay" everyone after the flop in limit. Play tightly pre-flop, and this game plays itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, what exactly about his preflop decision do you think results in his turn predicament. If you argue that he should fold KJs preflop from mid to late position please please please play in my games. I believe you can provide a more than compelling argument to call preflop here; however, I happen to prefer the raise. It allows you to assume control of the pot (at least if you either bet or raise on the flop) and to possibly take a free card if you flop a flush draw.
Kenshin's play (not necessarily the correct one)

1. preflop raise
2. flop raise
3. bet out if checked to and call if bet into

Kenshin

PS Diplomat's suggestion of 3 betting the turn further convinces me that folding constitutes an incorrect play here. I rank him amongst the posters whose advice I trust.

[SoBeDude]

1. 4 people are in the pot before you and you're raising with K J ? What for? You're not going to narrow the field. This is a drawing hand, you want to see the flop cheap. If you get reraised you are dominated without a doubt. I think a limp is a better play preflop (Or of course fold, but on this forum you're supposed to fold everything )

You misread the post. There are two people in the pot before him, he raised, the BB called, limpers called. So 4 people saw the flop.

With 2 limpers in front, I like the raise with KJs.

-Scott

[ZeroGee]

Kenshin,

I wasn't referring to this hand in particular. I was speaking about the general impression that people advocate folding too much on this forum.

I like KJ suited, and I don't mind opening to a raise with this. In fact, if I decided to play this hand, I'd have raised that flop, and hoped to get 3-bet to get it heads-up, and then see what develops on the turn.

It's the idea that people are 'too tight' on here that I was responding to.

[Kenshin]

ahh, my apologies. I completely misinterpreted your post.
Upon closer examination, I agree with the sentiment of what your wrote
Kenshin

[Pipedream]

Three-betting the turn is incorrect, but not as incorrect as folding it. You're holding what now appears to be a drawing hand. Why put in more bets than you have to with a hand that is very likely an underdog? You're definately not going to get a club draw or higher spade draw to fold. Trip 4's,AJ,or 66 aren't going anywhere. You call in hopes to hit your spade or King.

[Kenshin]

I would not 3 bet here either. His post simply convinced me that folding was incorrect

Kenshin

[Diplomat]

That was sort of my point. I would seriously consider raising here far more often than I'd consider folding, and I would not consider raising that often.

-Diplomat

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you jump directly from 3-6 to 15-30? If so, I suggest that you transition more gradually.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have logged quite a few hours at 5/10 also, but not nearly as many as at 3/6. Unfortunately, because of table availability at Party, it is very difficult to make this transition smoothly. By this, I mean that there are always many good 3/6 and 15/30 games going, but the 5/10 and 10/20 games are a) more sparse and b) almost always tougher. The shorthanded 5/10 and 10/20 games are great, but I'm much more comfortable in a full game.

I have an adequate bankroll for the jump and have no qualms with moving back down, so I'm not that worried about it. My biggest concern is making the necessary adjustments to my game.

[The Bear]

...do I pay off on the river unimproved?

[mikelow]

A clear-cut turn three-bet. You may still be ahead, and even if behind (full house unlikely at this point), you have outs.

[shemp]

That a flop of J44 has managed to hit 4 players so hard when I have a J in my hand, would, counter to one's better sense, incline me to raise. Calling is fine. Folding is a small mistake that keeps you out of a disaster, I suspect, but a small mistake I don't want to make today. Your flop call was such that any pocket pair or J will like his hand unless you 3bet and there are now 2 flush draws, all of whom may get jiggy in this rapidly growing pot. The raise is presumably a small loser, but sue me, I'll gamble at a table where everybody loves J44 after 2 ep limps and a raise. For every time you are nearly dead to 64 or 66 or J4, yes, J4, you'll more often be either quite live or even best. Yes, of course, you might have the best hand.

Apparently, I'm a maniac. As I said, calling is fine, likely even best, but I couldn't care less. I won't feel beat until the BB check 4-bets, and I'm calling that bastard down.

And until you get a better sense of your opposition, go ahead and do the obvious and raise the flop, as it will usually show immediate profit, and it will typically make the hand easier to play.

[Depraved]

Don't fold. Since you don't fold, you might as well raise yourself, and perhaps opt for a free showdown. If it gets capped, you may want to dump your hand on the river unimproved. This way you lose one more bet when you're beat and it's get capped on the turn, but I think the merits of the play still stand and it's better than playing it passively.

You want to be applying lots of pressure yourself when you can, and reraising is the way to do it.

Although it is possible, there's no reason to assume anyone has a 4. Since you should want a showdown to find out, and you also have extra outs to a flush, you'll have to call IMO, and if you have to call, give yourself the best chance to win and also collect the most.

Raising a weaker jack or even some other crap on the turn isn't unusual in the 15/30, so don't get to worried automatically when this situation occurs.

Given the way the hand was played to the turn, the MP player that raised has a good reason to think his hand (whatever it is) might be best, so figure there's a good chance he's overplaying it.

Also, raising the flop is probably a decent idea if you think the big blind will raise back.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Bear,

Your preflop raise is SOP. I'm not sure why there's discussion about its validity; it's really the industry standard unless the limpers are tight and tough.

On the flop, you should raise and get the extra dead money you're being offered. If the BB bet and the limpers both folded, then you could smooth call, but in this case you should most definitely raise.

On the turn you're in an uncomfortable spot. You did this to yourself really. You under-represented your hand on the flop, and thus MP could easily be thinking his hand is good. Your position simply sucks, but you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you didn't have your spade draw, I would say 3-bet and muck to the cap, but your spade draw makes that impossible, and if it is capped behind you, you have a very hard time calling the river unimproved, though the pot size might tempt you into doing it (probably incorrectly). So all that said, I would cold-call here and call the river unimproved.

This hand would've been much easier for you if you had simply raised the flop like you should've.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

A clear-cut turn three-bet.

Is this really so clear to you, Mike? What's his river play if it's capped? Do you plan on betting the river unimproved if both call?

GoT

[Vehn]

I would 3 bet the turn here in this game (party 15, 4-bet cap of course) oh right around 99.9% of the time. I would pay off 1 bet on the river if capped I guess.

[shemp]

Yeah, but. Everyone likes their hand. The BB said so on the flop (we'll find out how meaningful right after we raise), EP didn't raise the flop but bets which seems to say that the 6s helped him. MP's raise seems the most dubious of all, but it is a turn raise -- and they all, inexplicably, got here and feel quite content with a J446 board, which, if nothing else, suggests to me, I'm in the right game, and reason enough to raise.

I raise with about the same frequency as you, and yet I have my doubts it is clearly correct, and suspect otherwise. For when you are behind, you want callers, and when you are ahead, well, I don't know, what is the tradeoff between clearing up a 2-outer that trails in equity versus a flush draw paying the extra bets versus drawing thin/dead -- somebody is chopping up somebody. It's funny, but if I have an overpair, we can add the .0532% because I raise 100.37% without remorse if I get shown 44.

The thing that scares me about a cold call is having a worse J try to knock me of a better one on the river, where the raise kind of puts them on notice.

[Buckshot]

I wouldn't pay off more than 1 bet unless I thought someone would check-raise. But most of this wouldn't be an issue if you had raised on the flop OR if you had 3 bet the flop.

If everyone checked a blank river to me, I'm more liable to bet.

~stephen

[The Bear]

Well, it seems almost unanimous that I should have raised the flop. Of all those listed, I think the most important reason is that I need to define my hand to make other streets easier to play. I learned that lesson on the turn.

As far as the turn play, folding never really crossed my mind. I'm not yet willing to give someone credit for a full house on a J446 board. I just doesn't make much sense. When EP bet and MP raised, I figured I was probably up against a 4. I also (probably incorrectly) assumed that if I 3-bet, it would only be capped by A4 or a full house.

As such, I decided to 3-bet and check behind on the river unimproved. By this line, I can charge BB and EP the maximum if they are drawing and still get to showdown for 3-bets (assuming that I'm paying off 1 bet on the river no matter what). I think calling vs. raising is strongly dependent on the likelihood of being 4-bet on the turn. After reading everyone's responses, I'm still torn. But as GOT said, if I had played the flop correctly, this wouldn't have been a problem.

Thanks to everyone for responding. I'll try to do better next time.

And if you really care about results...

I 3-bet the turn, BB and EP folded, MP called. The river was a spade and it went check, bet, call. He had a strangely played QJo and my hand was good.

[daryn]

do you really expect to have the best hand here on the turn? i wouldn't. i like a call on the turn.

preflop raise i really don't have too big of a problem with, although there's a strong argument for limping.

[ShortStack]

I really liked this post. It brought up some questions though about boards that have a pair. Though borderline, I'm a pre-flop raiser with KJs. No problem. And if the board would have been J42, I'm a definite raiser. But the board is J44. Why not just call the flop? I understand there is an advantage when controlling the betting and perhaps your building a pot if your hand turns powerhouse, but calling seems correct. Is it because 44 is such a low pair and therefore unlikely that anyone has a 4? Should I play this as if the 4s don't exist and I have top pair/good kicker?

The turn was 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Without the flush draw, I probably would have not cold called the raise (if the 6 was a different suit.) The reraise seems very aggressive and I hope to understand it.

Thanks and good luck!

[CrackerZack]

misread or not, I like the raise better with 4 people in already.

[Depraved]

[ QUOTE ]
I should have raised the flop... the most important reason is that I need to define my hand to make other streets easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about this particular subject off and on for a few months now, and my opinion on it has changed somewhat. First of all, you could just type your exact hand or general hand (top pair) in the chat window if you want all your opponents to know what you have. Of course most people probably wouldn't, and I think there's a good reason for that. When you "define" your hand, the people that benefit most are your opponents. It makes other streets easier to play for them, and they will make less mistakes which reduces your profit. Obviously you will gain some value from knowing how your opponents perceive your hand, but by the same token you should be able to deduce what they think of your hand when you haven't represented anything. In other words, you should assume they think you have no pair, and play accordingly.

I think raising the flop in this hand was a good idea, but not because your opponents would have learned more about your hand. In fact, if there were a way to raise and keep them in the dark I would opt for that, but there isn't. Most of the time you can't help but define your hand, but I contend (probably in the minority) that the identity of your hand is usually more valuable when known only by you.

Not to be too results oriented, but look how the hand ended up. From the flop on, you collect 4.5BB from QJo. If you raise the flop and bet every street, you only would have got 3BB. Even though raising the flop was probably correct, you gained 1.5BB with deception. While you may have clear cut decisions against weaker players if they know what you have, I don't believe you will make the most money this way, and with tougher opponents, well you can forget about making much money if they know what you have. If you can induce more mistakes from opponents you'll be able to extract more money from them vs. playing a hand holding contest.

[ QUOTE ]
I decided to 3-bet and check behind on the river unimproved. By this line, I can charge BB and EP the maximum if they are drawing and still get to showdown for 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

This logic is perfect IMO.

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
He had a strangely played QJo and my hand was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its that strange. I wouldn't have been there but look at it from his side.

PF: Ok, crappy limper limps, I had QJo, these guys behind me are tight, lets isolate, I raise. Poop, one of the tighties 3-bet, probably has AK or an overpair. Ok, we call.

Flop: nice top pair but a flush draw out there. I'm now ahead of AK. BB bets, probably his flush draw, maybe weak J, limpy calls whatever, I call and see what PFR does. Just calls...hmmm, looks like AK after all as he should raise this flop with an overpair with the flush draw out there.

Turn: rag, 2 flush draws now. BB bets again, ok, probably a J now, I think my kicker is good though, limpy calls, ok, time to get PFR out of this pot, I raise, he 3-bet, huh? what? wtf? ARGH!!!!!


He shouldn't have called the river, or been in the hand, but the play wasn't that ridiculous.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He had a strangely played QJo and my hand was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its that strange. I wouldn't have been there but look at it from his side.

PF: Ok, crappy limper limps, I had QJo, these guys behind me are tight, lets isolate, I raise. Poop, one of the tighties 3-bet, probably has AK or an overpair. Ok, we call.

Flop: nice top pair but a flush draw out there. I'm now ahead of AK. BB bets, probably his flush draw, maybe weak J, limpy calls whatever, I call and see what PFR does. Just calls...hmmm, looks like AK after all as he should raise this flop with an overpair with the flush draw out there.

Turn: rag, 2 flush draws now. BB bets again, ok, probably a J now, I think my kicker is good though, limpy calls, ok, time to get PFR out of this pot, I raise, he 3-bet, huh? what? wtf? ARGH!!!!!


He shouldn't have called the river, or been in the hand, but the play wasn't that ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it was ridiculous, just peculiar. First off, he limped preflop, then called my raise. He made no attempt to isolate. And he should be raising that flop every time if he's going to play that hand. He needs to charge me if have just overcards.

I see your point, though. Which makes me think, if players will play QJo this way, that's a good reason to 3-bet the turn.

[Ed Miller]

As long as you expect someone to bet, waiting for the turn to raise is a-ok, and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Poker isn't about "defining your hand." Poker is about winning money. I think waiting for the turn often makes more money in a situation like that. In fact, it DID make you more money on THIS hand.

You played the hand fine. In fact, having read your posts over the last few months, I think 15-30 will go fine for you as well.

[mikelow]

And that's why you will find lots of juicy games. Keep it up at this limit, expand your bankroll, then you can try 30-60. I prefer games with the small blind 2/3 of the big blind--just my choice.

Actually the hand was played OK, even with the missed flop raise. The key was the turn three-bet.