Big pocket pairs on a bad turn

[TimTimSalabim]

I think this is the biggest leak in my game, is how to play a big pocket pair on the turn, especially when the board pairs or is otherwise threatening. Recent example:

I'm playing a 4-8 game at Mandalay Bay with the 1-2 miniblinds. I hate the structure of the game, but hey, MB has some nice cocktail waitresses and I'm trying to break my habit of playing quasi-legal online poker in my underwear and leave the apartment occasionally. But I digress. I get dealt KK on the button. Two loose-passives ahead of me limp for the $2, I pop it up to $6, a LAG in the BB pops it to $10 (woohoo!), the other two cold call the two raises (told ya they were loose-passives), I pop it up to $14, everyone calls.

Flop comes 7-4-2, mixed. LAG in the BB checks, next guy bets out $4, next guy calls, I pop it to $8, LAG folds, everyone else calls. Three to the turn.

Turn is another 7. Check, check to me. The cocktail waitress comes by and wants to know if I would like another Coke. But I can't respond, because, it's quiz time: I would like to know what the panel out there would do before I reveal the results.

Do you:
a) check it down
b) bet and fold to a check-raise
c) bet and call a check-raise

Results to follow.

[Kluddeludde]

Looks like a good opportunity to induce a bluff. Check it down and then intend to call or bet on the river no matter what comes. This way you can avoid being checkraised if he has the 7, if he doesn't he may very well try to bluff on the river with nothing, when you check behind him on the turn.

Kludde

[Haupt_234]

Although they are loose-passive, I would still check the turn and call a bet on the river (unless the bet is re-raised). The pot is large so the call on the end, which possibly may be crying, is worth it.

Betting and being check-raised would most likely mean trips, because the 2 loose-passive players got sucked into the pot in the beggining.


Haupt_234

[Gramps]

Given that you're up against two "loose-passives" in a big pot, it sounds unlikely that they would play back at you without a 7. There's $79 in the pot minus rake by my rough calculation. Don't give a free card to someone with two outs (a 2, 4 or pocket pair) who wouldn't call your Turn bet (or would make a mathematical error in doing so). If you check, you give a free card, but will pay someone with a 7 $8 on the River regardless when they bet into you after their failed C/R attempt on the Turn. So, you might as well give them that $8 on the Turn.

I'd bet the Turn, and lay it down to a check-raise if you are very confident you're behind and that one of these players wouldn't make such a play at you on a bluff, draw, 2, 4, or lesser (than KK) pocket pair. You only have two outs, so if you KNOW you're behind, you could give it up here.

One more point in favor of betting, true loose-passive players usually don't go for Turn check-raises. Having watched these players before would help in that area to know if they'd lead out or go for the C/R with a 7. I'd bet the Turn based on the info provided.

If I'm called and a scare card doesn't come on the River (4, 2, maybe a 3 or 8) I'd bet the River too. Hard to know for sure though.

[calvin]

Hello,

I would bet the turn, and reraise if I am checkraised.

Calvin

[Homer]

You would three-bet a check-raise from a loose-passive player?

[TimTimSalabim]

Interesting responses so far. I tend to agree now, after learning the hard way, that the answer should be either a or b. Unfortunately, faced with this situation, I chose c. Back we go to that fateful day:

I bet the turn and was checkraised by the first player, then my thinking process went something like this: "Wow, checkraise. That must mean he has a seven. Of course he has a seven. What else could he have? Any idiot can see he's got a seven. " Then closely followed by the kind of thinking that gets me in trouble in these situations..."How could he have a seven? How could he possibly have a freakin' seven when he called two raises cold preflop? Who does that? Maybe he's got QQ or something. I'll call". Which I did. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

The river was something inconsequential, fortunately he checked, and I quickly flipped over my two kings, wanting to get the thing over with. He flipped over his hand, and the dealer announced "three sevens, winner". I guess I'm so used to playing online that I didn't even look to see what his kicker was before it got mucked. Let's hope if he had A7 or maybe 87 that at least it was soooooted. /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

I think from now on, especially when I play live, I'm going to take option a or b. As I recall, HPFAP recommends option b in these situations. I can see merits for both, but I'm definitely going to give up option c. It seems like when you play live, as opposed to online, people almost always have the goods when they checkraise the turn.