Induced opponent to bet...then it all went to crap

[foobar]

Hey all,

Interested on thoughts on this hand....

Early in a stars $30 s&g last night, all stacks approximately even at T1500 a piece, don't have much of a read on anyone, except SB seems loose. Again though, it was early, so no strong read. I catch AKo in the BB. Fold to button who makes it 3xBB to go. SB calls. I call.

Flop comes Kxx rainbow. SB checks it to me and I decide to try to induce action behind me, so I put out a min bet. Button folds, SB comes over the top making it something like 4xBB to go. Now I'm all proud of myself because things are going exactly as I planned, so I come come back over the top of SB making it 10xBB or so all together. SB thinks, and pushes in. Now I'm sad because I didn't see this coming. His all-in at this point was a huge overbet of the pot, and neither of us were in chip trouble before he put this bet in. I think for a while and lay down my TPTK putting him likely on set, possibly on 2-pair, although 2-pair seemed unlikely given the flop.

Anyhow, I soon find out that the guy was a complete maniac, he ended up busting out when he pushed w/ K6o preflop for no apparent reason while we were still 8-handed /images/graemlins/smile.gif So chances are good that I was ahead of this particular opponent. In general though, w/out a solid read on a player, what do you do in my situation? I'm not particularly interested in hearing how you would have played differently preflop or how you would have led out differently w/ the flop bet, etc....I know there are different ways to do this, and I usually play it differently myself. I'm specifically interested in why or why not to call the guy's all-in given the action leading up to his push.

Thanks.

[William]

I would suggest buying a crystal ball. they are very efficient /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[foobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I would suggest buying a crystal ball. they are very efficient

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this was just a joke post, but are you also implying that it's an easy lay down since I have no way of knowing where I am?

[SnakeRat]

how big was the pot?

[William]

I am implying that you are going to get a lot of answers from people that will be telling you what they would have done, but as there is no way of knowing what this guy had, thus what the correct action should have been, the only thing you'll learn is how other posters think.
You are asking a question that has no answer.

Take care,
William

[Edge34]

Hey foobar,

First - The button's open-raise was classic steal position...i'd have considered reraising PF, even though your play worked out just as well.

Second, without the exact texture of the flop, its hard to tell for certain what the play here is. Although since what you wanted was action behind you, you could have A) checked the flop, assuming the Button would fire out again and you could then come over the top all-in....either that, or B) Come over the top all-in of the SB's initial raise...don't leave yourself open to that type of play, since you hit EXACTLY the card you wanted.

-Edge

[TheGrifter]

William,

I disagree with you here, this seems like a pretty straightforward question that can be answered.

The answer does not relate to knowing what your opponent had in this instance but rather to what your opponent will have most of the time in this situation. Given that you know nothing of your opponent and it is early in the tourney I think this is an easy fold.

If all your money foes in on the flop with TPTK (early on), more often than not, you are behind.

[foobar]

William,

I see your point and enjoy reading your posts. So, please take the following w/ a grain of salt.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but 99% of the posts on this board fall into one of several categories...

1)I'm a great player and look how I got sucked out on by some fish (disguised as posts w/ topics like "What was my opponent thinking", "Fold AA preflop?", "Good call w/ 24o?", etc).

2)I'm a great player and look at my awesome play (these posts usually have headings like "Why you guys aren't winning at NL", "Charging for the flush draw", "Don't play results-orientated poker", "Sklansky says such and so on page 197 or HFAP", etc).

3)Here's a question about a hand and I'd like some input (disguised as posts w/ topics like..."Induced opponent to bet...then it all went to crap")

I understand that I don't have 20987 posts to my name, but christ, I'm not a moron. I understand that replies I get will just be peoples opinions. If I wanted to know the odds, I would just run the hand through twodimes, or pokercalc. In short, I don't see the value in making a post like..."get a crystal ball", or "you're just going to get opionions" unless they're just taking shots at a newbie.

In general I appreciate the advice I get on this board, and find some of the threads to be helpful. When I post, I'm usually just looking for somebody to mention something that I might not have thought of that may help me improve my game down the line.

Anyhow, I'm off my noob soapbox.

Cheers.

[foobar]

Edge,

Thanks for info. As for the flop, as I said it was rainbow. Probably should also have added that there was no straight draw on board: I believe the exact ranks were K 6 2.

cheers.

[William]

Fair enough,

My opinion then is that wathever you decide to do in that particular situation is ok. If you want to go all-in, there is a good chance that you are ahead, as overbets normally are attempts to scare the oponents and there are so many maniacs out there that they also have to be a serious option.
On the other hand, you have suffered no real harm at this moment and it is ok to lay down a hand to a bet that could bust you out of the tourney when you have no read on the other player. At least you will stay in the game and will have the opportunity to learn what kind of player he is and that could be helpfull in later decisions.
So, all in al, it depends in the kind of mood you are. Want to take a reasonable chance to double up and take the lead? Sounds good.
Want to be more cautious and wait for a better spot? Sounds good as well.

Hope this helps,
William

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
William,

I understand that I don't have 20987 posts to my name, but christ, I'm not a moron. I understand that replies I get will just be peoples opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a great quote, I was laughing out loud. I think you have to get used to William's posting and writing style a bit, it can be a bit (shall we say) unique, but no other poster at this site has helped me more with my game than William.

AS for the hand in question, not sure a minimum bet was the best play, why not try for a check raise instead. There don't seem to be that many free cards that would hurt you and the raiser will usually bet. Hard to know without seeing the bets but you should perhaps think of bet size as pot sized etc. rather than how many bb's the bet was. If my math is right there is 180 in the pot at the time of the flop and the bettor on the flop bets 80. That is a pretty small bet. You raise 120 making it 180 to go with 240 already in the pot. This is all if I understand your post info. This raise is way to small imo.

All that being said, tptk is a difficult hand to play in no limit when someone is betting into you and you don't have a read. I think (not to put words in his mouth) that was William's point.

[CrisBrown]

Hi William,

[ QUOTE ]
So, all in al, it depends in the kind of mood you are. Want to take a reasonable chance to double up and take the lead? Sounds good.
Want to be more cautious and wait for a better spot? Sounds good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

For all my rep as a maniac, I'd probably take the latter course here, for all of the reasons you said: it's early, I don't have good reads on the players, and my experience has been that TPTK is not a great hand to go to war with in the first few rounds of a tourney.

Cris

[foobar]

William,

Thanks the reply. I could see a lot of people flying off the handle there: I appreciate that you didn't.

Cheers.