poor prefolp call?

[cjs]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold 'Em (9 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.5 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (12.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 19.25 BB, between MP3 and Hero.</font>

Results in white: <font color="white">MP3 shows Qd Qc (three of a kind, queens). Hero shows Ac 5c (a straight, ace to five). </font>
Although it worked out is this a poor call prefolp?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I think the pre-flop call was okay, given your position. The main question would be what hands MP3 would raise with. Is he loose/agressive or whatnot. But you do have multiway action for your drawing hand which is what you want.

Actually I might have folded the flop as all you have now is an inside draw to the 2 with no flush chances, which is what I'm assuming you played the hand for in the first place. Your ace is probably no good as well with a 5 kicker. What would you have done if an A fell on the turn instead of your straight and MP3 still came at you strong?

[Luke]

I don't like the preflop call.

Yeah, there are a bunch of other players in the hand but I still don't like the odds you're getting on the hand. You also have some people to act behind you so you run the risk of the pot being 3-bet and even capped. Also, you'll have undesirable position relative to the raiser if you flop a draw on the flop (as you saw in your hand when everyone checked to the preflop raiser and you were the first to have to call - just think if someone was going for a checkraise).

Luke

[cjs]

I didn't think of it at the time but I'm in trouble if the A comes. The prefolp raiser was not a loose raiser and with my kicker I can't be happy.

[Jeremy'sSpoken]

Your call preflop was probably a mistake but a minimal one given there were already three in. Your main concern is getting reraised or even capped. This is where being aware of the table comes in.

I think your call on the flop was far worse. I assume you were looking at the 12:1 pot odds as being sufficient. However with the /images/graemlins/heart.gif draw on the board one of your straight draw outs is no longer good as well as your A do the the flush and preflop action. Thus you are really left with 3 outs or 14:1 and you are not drawing to the nut fush as a 56 beats you. Or any six if a 5 falls on the river. Not to mention you may hit your straight on the turn and a heart could still come on the river and beat you.

I would have folded the flop.

[Schmed]

Preflop I don't have a problem calling the blinds with Axs.

Raised to me I don't make that call, you're just asking for trouble if your ace hits.

If I were in the blinds I call it. If I were already in and there was a raise behind me and there were callers coming along for the ride I call the raise. Two bets to me I fold preflop everytime.

On the flop you're getting your odds for your gutshot so I like the call there. So what happened, lemme guess, you sucked out a gutshot, cracked his aces, and he threw a hissy fit.....F'm

[novamob]

Cold calling 2 bets with this hand is a bad move. If you are up against AK or AQ (the original raiser) you are a monster underdog. If you are against a pocket pair above 5, you are a big dog as well. Your best hope is to hit clubs, which you didn't. In my opinion, you got lucky as hell that (a) you hit the gutshot and (b) it held up with hearts on the board.

At the same time, you probably put the poor sap with QQ on tilt, which could be profitable.

[joker122]

This is probably the minority opinion, but I agree with the pre-flop call. This is because you already know 4 players are taking the flop, you make 5, and the BB is a 50/50 to call (which he did) makes 6. There's already 6 BBs in the pot and you have a hand that has potential to develop into the nuts. What I'm getting at is, your implied odds are great. This is the same concept of raising with a hand like JTs or a small pair after a bunch of people have already called, because these hands, like yours, play well in multiway pots. The only difference is someone did the raising for you.

[BigEndian]

This is a fold PF at a normal table. But it's not a huge error with the amount of company you have. And it's a good call if the table gives loose action on later streets.

[edit] mis-read your raisor desciption - damn small fonts

- Jim

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
This is probably the minority opinion, but I agree with the pre-flop call. This is because you already know 4 players are taking the flop, you make 5, and the BB is a 50/50 to call (which he did) makes 6. There's already 6 BBs in the pot and you have a hand that has potential to develop into the nuts. What I'm getting at is, your implied odds are great. This is the same concept of raising with a hand like JTs or a small pair after a bunch of people have already called, because these hands, like yours, play well in multiway pots. The only difference is someone did the raising for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's a big difference.

If you raise, it means no one else liked their hand enough to raise on their own, so you're likely up against worse hands than you are here. (It takes a better hand to call a raise preflop than it does to make a raise preflop)

Also, when you raise, the flop will likely be checked around to you. If you don't flop a good hand or good draw, you can take a free card, which might give you a good hand/good draw. Here, the preflop raiser is on your right, so not only will you probably not get a free card, once he bets, you'll have to decide what to do while you still have the whole field acting behind you.

You also won't be in a good position to raise your draw, since you'd be making the field call 2 bets cold in order to continue. Contrast this with when the preflop raiser is in EP - now if you flop a good draw, he bets, gets several callers, you raise, they might only need to call your one bet to continue.

[Runner Runner]

I counted two people who had a bigger problem with the flop call then the preflop call. Please do not listen to that nonsense. I admit that the flop call may be close due to that you are calling cold and a check raise may be looming, but you do have the outs for your gutshot and I don't think calling on the flop is bad at all.

Calling preflop in this spot is horrible though and I think your bankroll will suffer if you call 2 cold with AXs just cause it's multiway. It is not the fact that you are likely dominated. It is not even the fact that you are probably dominated. You are 100% certainly dominated and should expect to be dominated unless your opponents are all drunk. Forget the fact that its a multiway pot and the fact that you have excellent position cause being dominated supercedes both of those things. I would only call preflop if the dealer accidentally fumbled the deck and revealed that the next 8 cards were all black, and even then it would be close.

[Jeremy'sSpoken]

Please explain how drawing to a non-nuts inside straight with only 3 clean outs with a flush draw out there, (ie you make your hand but still lose multiple bets) is nonsense. That is likely to cost you many times more bets than the cols calling mistake on the flop which only cost you 1 SB.