the only people opposed to gay marriage are closeted gays

[jokerswild]

All those closeted people: Bush, Falwell, wakeup call.

Why should anyone care? I'm not gay, but I don't care what others do as long as they don't hurt others.

The Christians have murdered more people in the name of Christ than any other organization in history.

[krazyace5]

Hey Jokers.....

quit lookin at my ass. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ComedyLimp]

"The Christians have murdered more people in the name of Christ than any other organization in history"

This is undeniably true.

[MMMMMM]

jokerswild: "The Christians have murdered more people in the name of Christ than any other organization in history."

The Communists didn't murder more people in the name of Christ, but the Communists certainly did murder more people period.

Please get your facts straight, jokerswild; you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
the Communists certainly did murder more people period.


[/ QUOTE ]

The communists have murdered more people that Christians...Really???

Who needs to get their facts straight?

[superleeds]

To argue who killed more you first have to be very clear what constitutes a communist, what constitutes a christian and what constitutes murder. Away you go.

On the main point of the post, there is a monetary aspect involved. As always these things arn't black and white.

[andyfox]

The fear of the "other" has always, to some extent, been a fear of becoming the other.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
The fear of the "other" has always, to some extent, been a fear of becoming the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really Andy? Somehow I doubt members of the KKK had a fear they would turn black.

[MMMMMM]

The Communists in the USSR and China murdered 80-100 million people during the 20th century.

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/musframe.htm

So, elwood, what are you claiming: that the Christians murdered more people than that (and in the name of Christ, as jokerswild says)? If so, when and where?

[MMMMMM]

Andy Fox: "The fear of the "other" has always, to some extent, been a fear of becoming the other."

Wake UP Call: "Really Andy? Somehow I doubt members of the KKK had a fear they would turn black."

Very good, Wake. Another (nonsensical) liberal platitude shot down with ease.;)

It's rather amazing but just about everything I learned as a child regarding politics and sociology was wrong (and liberal).

[elwoodblues]

The quote that I was responding to was yours saying that "communists murdered more people period." You didn't give a time frame. You didn't give a context. You said that they have murdered more people period. There is no way that is true.

[elwoodblues]

Andy's quote was that "to some extent" they feared becoming the other. To the extent members of the KKK feared being the "lowest" social class/powerless like the blacks they persecuted Andy is absolutely right.

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fear of the "other" has always, to some extent, been a fear of becoming the other.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Really Andy? Somehow I doubt members of the KKK had a fear they would turn black.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe there fear was of becoming a repressed minority.

It that really the best you could do Wake, sad, as was your education (or rather lack of) it would seem.

[HDPM]

Actually, a big aspect of white racism re: black people is the fear black men will breed with white women and create a mixed race. This is a traditional view and still exists among racist morons. But there was no mistaking the anti-intermarriage laws. So in fact many KKK guys feared becoming black in a sense, although it would be by proxy through offspring of their race. You still hear peole talking about the benefits of a white race and their fear of mixed race people. They are complete idiots of course.

[superleeds]

There was a little war during the 20th Century which was largely the responsibility of a baptised catholic, who claimed on more than one occasion he was doing the Lord's Work

here (http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html)

The death toll can be found here (http://www.hitler.org/ww2-deaths.html)

I think the Lord may have the upper hand on this one. By the way where did you get your fiqures?

[Wake up CALL]

elwood,

Actually you misquoted Andy to suit your response. To properly paraphrase what he really wrote would be to say that to some extent the fear was caused by fear of becoming the other , not that to some extent they feared becoming the other. If he had said wht you wrote I would have no disagreement. In fact I was thinking of the correct response (about interacial mingling) given by HDPM when I wrote my question to Andy.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fear of the "other" has always, to some extent, been a fear of becoming the other.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Really Andy? Somehow I doubt members of the KKK had a fear they would turn black.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe there fear was of becoming a repressed minority.

It that really the best you could do Wake, sad, as was your education (or rather lack of) it would seem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love you goofballs who accuse others of having a poor education while in the same sentence you are unable to use either proper grammar or proper word usage. Pot calling the kettle black there superleeds? LOL

[superleeds]

So I can take it you now agree that your quote

Really Andy? Somehow I doubt members of the KKK had a fear they would turn black.

was a peice of horse$hit seeing as your only comeback was more on my sense of grammatical style rather than content.

[MMMMMM]

Even using those figures the total is less. Further to claim that WWII was primarily about killing in the name of Christ is stretching things considerably, IMO.

The figures I cited are generally accepted by most modern historians. They are also are detailed in the link I provided, with breakdowns as to how many died in Stalinist purges, in the gulags, in forced famines, etc., and so with China as well.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]

So I can take it you now agree that your quote

Really Andy? Somehow I doubt members of the KKK had a fear they would turn black.

was a peice of horse$hit seeing as your only comeback was more on my sense of grammatical style rather than content.

[/ QUOTE ]

So not only do you still do not realize how ludicrous your response was to my post but you seem to believe I retracted my response to Andy by refusing to address your ridiculous contention? You may answer in single syllable words if it is easier for you.

[MMMMMM]

Of course it is true.

If you added up all those murdered by Christians in the name of Christ throughout all history, it would not be even the 80-100 million murdered internally by Communists in the USSR and China in only the 20th century. And that's not even counting those murdered by Communists in other manners or locales.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
The quote that I was responding to was yours saying that "communists murdered more people period." You didn't give a time frame. You didn't give a context. You said that they have murdered more people period. There is no way that is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Elwood,

MMMMMM backs his statement up with a link to some data that supports his position. You provide nothing to support your position. Why should we view you position with any credibility. Are things so just because Elwoodblues says they are so?

Stu

[elwoodblues]

Now I'm confused.

I think you're making a distinction without a difference here and are taking "becoming the other" WAY too literally.

[MMMMMM]

I think it is a perfectly appropriate and necessary distinction given Andy's initial remark.

[superleeds]

My fiqures only relate to a 6 year period as opposed to 50 years as yours do. Remember there was another war where over 10 million died, again the chief protagonist were a 'god fearing nation', but I concede your point that I am stretching things.

But can you not also see that Stalin and Mao, whilst controlling powerful Communist nations, were killing more for political expediency rather than slavishly following the Communist Ideal. Might you also be stretching a little.

[elwoodblues]

These little pissing matches are so fun. He doesn't post a link that backs up his statement. He posts a link that backs up part of his statement. His statement was that Communists have killed more period. His link shows that communists killed a lot (no question about that). What it doesn't show is the comparison.

[ QUOTE ]
Are things so just because Elwoodblues says they are so?

[/ QUOTE ]

That, and common sense. 2000 years of Christianity vs. 1 century of communism. No way the numbers are even close (and I'm not going to do the work to look them up). It is so because Elwood says so...I like that.

[MMMMMM]

No, I don't think it is stretching, because I didn't say that they killed in the name of Communism. I said that Communists killed.

Jokerswild claimed that Christians have killed more people in the name of Christ than any other organization. I have had this discussion with him before, so I know he is not being tricky or facetious. He actually thinks Christians have murdered more people in the name of Christ than any other organization has murdered people for any reason whatsoever. Therefore I reiterated that Communists have murdered more in the 20th century than all who have ever been murdered in the name of Christ. I am pretty sure that Communists also have murdered more than all Christians have murdered throughout history (earlier mass murders are much smaller potatoes, numerically speaking, although in terms of percentage of population they may have a bit more significance). So I don't believe I'm stretching things: just making a point which Jokerswild is oblivious to (and apparently prefers to remain oblivious to), and oregarding which some others may simply be unaware of or uninformed about.

[superleeds]

Argh, Now I see. It only counts if a christian kills in the name of christ, whereas a communist killing counts regardless of motives. Have I got it right?

[MMMMMM]

No, elwood, you're wrong and here's why:

First off, I gave support for the raw numbers. You gave no support for your assertion other than to presume that nineteen centuries had to weigh more than one century. But that is not the case, because the population was much greater during the 20th century than during all of those preceding centuries, and because the technologies and systems for mass murder were more developed. Now think about that, and then please try to provide SOME numerical support for your assertion (other than completely empty conjecture). You might start by adding up all those murdered by the Spanish Inquisition and the European and Colonial witch hysterias--and any other Christian mass murders you can think of. I believe you will find that those numbers are but a teaspoon in the bucket compared to the 80-100 million murdered by the Communists.

[MMMMMM]

No, I believe it is true both ways, but I had to make the distinction because someone erroneously accused me of stretching.

[andyfox]

I'm quite sure KKK member felt that the blacks' (and jews', and other "others'") wayward ways would infect their "purity" and make them the equivalent of the "other."

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
That, and common sense. 2000 years of Christianity vs. 1 century of communism. No way the numbers are even close (and I'm not going to do the work to look them up). It is so because Elwood says so...I like that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you believe the old story about Noah and the flood it has been estimated that 8.7 billion of the 9 billion people alive at the time (3500BC) were killed. It seems that water is more dangerous than either Christianity or communism. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[adios]

elwood wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
These little pissing matches are so fun. He doesn't post a link that backs up his statement. He posts a link that backs up part of his statement. His statement was that Communists have killed more period. His link shows that communists killed a lot (no question about that). What it doesn't show is the comparison.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you started the pissing contest:

M wrote in part:

[ QUOTE ]
the Communists certainly did murder more people period.

[/ QUOTE ]

To which you responded:

[ QUOTE ]
The communists have murdered more people that Christians...Really???

Who needs to get their facts straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like a challenge to me. If I'm not mistaken population growth is anything but linear ( population growth vs. time ) so in my mind it would stand to reason that the world's population is proportionatly much bigger now when compared to the amount of time that has elapsed. So I don't think M's claim is outlandish in the least. Now on some sort of normalized basis where a percentage of entire world's population is used, the data may inidicate something far different.

[superleeds]

Ok you win if you address my ridiculous contention.

Use any words you want, I have a dictionary

[Wake up CALL]

Andy used the word always in his quote, I simply pointed out (by example) that using always caused his statement to become false.

Perhaps I could have chosen a better example, ie:

I am afraid of being castrated but not because I would fear becoming more feminine but because it would hurt like hell. His statement was so broad that it could not possibly be correct in the above sense so I used a racial example which I thought more closely resembled the context of his meaning.

[Il_Mostro]

[ QUOTE ]
You might start by adding up all those murdered by the Spanish Inquisition and the European and Colonial witch hysterias

[/ QUOTE ]

It has absolutley nothing to do with the argument at hand, but I just finished reading a book on the subject of which-hunting in Europe. The fact is that the Spanish Inquisition killed way way less people than popular belif has it. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it was in the 10s or maybe 100s, not 1000s or 10000s.
I'm not going to expand on the subject, if I don't absolutely have to, but it was fashinating reading.

[superleeds]

First off let me apologize for questioning your education, it was puerile and immature and obviously false. I'll try not to do it again. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Now that's out of the way, in your reply to Andy your example was in no way, at least not to simple old me, alluding to the fact that his quote was in anyway false in a sense that it was meaningless but in the sense that, fear of becoming something you fear, was a concept you had doubts on.

I would also point out that altho the word 'always' is improperly used, it is mitigated by the phrase 'to some extent'. I would suggest that could such an 'extent' be measured, there is a fairly high certainty that it would always be there to some degree.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
That, and common sense. 2000 years of Christianity vs. 1 century of communism. No way the numbers are even close (and I'm not going to do the work to look them up).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're are not going to do the work to substantiate your statement, don't expect anyone to find your statements as credible. If you're happy with that, I'm sure the rest of the forum is as well.

Stu

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
First off let me apologize for questioning your education, it was puerile and immature and obviously false. I'll try not to do it again. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really necessary but thank you and I accept! /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[ QUOTE ]
Now that's out of the way, in your reply to Andy your example was in no way, at least not to simple old me, alluding to the fact that his quote was in anyway false in a sense that it was meaningless but in the sense that, fear of becoming something you fear, was a concept you had doubts on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks again, for pointing out exactly what it was about my post that spun our discussion out of control. You are correct I was not clear and I see that now that you point out explicitly how you read my quote.

[ QUOTE ]
I would also point out that altho the word 'always' is improperly used, it is mitigated by the phrase 'to some extent'. I would suggest that could such an 'extent' be measured, there is a fairly high certainty that it would always be there to some degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

A fairly high certainty I can readily accept however that certainly excludes "always"! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

An interesting aside, which has been mentioned before on this forum, is that the number of people now living exceeds the sum total of all people who ever lived before. I forget in which year this great numerical crossover occurred, but it was very recently.

[John Cole]

Wake,

What a telling example, castration anxiety. But, in a psychoanalytic context, reworked from Freud by Lacan, your fear of having your dick cut off has much more symbolic value. The phallus, also the place of the Other, the Law, and the Father, cannot be gained even if you have a penis, although boys, because they have a penis, believe they have a shot at assuming the position when, instead, that position is already occupied. Is this clear?

[krazyace5]

Also, just because someone doesn't agree with the gay lifestyle or gay marriage doesn't mean they are gay. To steal an example from these posts, I do not agree with the KKK but that does not mean I am a closet KKK member.

[andyfox]

How is is nonsensical? How is it liberal? How is it platitudinous? Makes sense to me that hatred and fear would go hand-in-hand.

[MMMMMM]

It's nonsensical because of the word "always."

It's liberal because it strikes me as such;-)

It's platitudinous because I've heard it, or something very similar, more than once before--and because of the word "always". Another reason it is platitudinous is because it is overly simplistic.

[MMMMMM]

krazyace5: "To steal an example from these posts, I do not agree with the KKK but that does not mean I am a closet KKK member."

And if you fear the KKK, neither does it mean that you are necessarily afraid of becoming a member of the KKK.

[Il_Mostro]

[ QUOTE ]
the number of people now living exceeds the sum total of all people who ever lived before

[/ QUOTE ]

I have also read this in a few places, I have never seen any real math to support it, though. Do you have any links or any other information on the subject? I'm not arguing the fact, but I am interested to try and verify it

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Watching liberals stand up and argue for States' Rights and conservatives become defenders of Federalism only points out how little consistency there is to the positions taken by either side.

On one hand, I don't care who marries whom. On the other, I also do not believe that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts should have the power to make law for all 50 states.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
I also do not believe that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts should have the power to make law for all 50 states.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you don't agree with the "Full Faith and Credit" and "Privileges and Immunities" clauses of the Constitution. States have been able to enact laws that affect all the other states for a very long time. An example (still in the marriage context) would be that the first state to enact no fault divorce essentially affected all 50 states in that anybody could move to the state and get divorced. Nevada (Vegas in particular) allows for a shorter period of time between obtaining a license and being married. As such, they have a law that changes an individual's status in all 50 states despite the fact the most (if not all) of the other 49 require a longer period of time.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I am chuckling to myself here, going to stay out of it for my own personal safety!

Gonna start a good flame war on this one.

Fallwell is an [censored] tho. I don't put him in the same category as bush tho, bush has some redeeming qualities.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I do believe you are right about the communists holding the record M man.

al

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Wake,

What a telling example, castration anxiety. But, in a psychoanalytic context, reworked from Freud by Lacan, your fear of having your dick cut off has much more symbolic value. The phallus, also the place of the Other, the Law, and the Father, cannot be gained even if you have a penis, although boys, because they have a penis, believe they have a shot at assuming the position when, instead, that position is already occupied. Is this clear?


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless someone tells a Lorena Bobbitt joke I never give the matter a 2nd thought.

[MMMMMM]

Well, why not list some atrocities or mass murders committed by Christians, Al, if you care to, and let's add up some numbers.

Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, but the Soviet and Chinese communists murdered 80-100 million of their own citizens. Now, are there any other mass murders in history that even remotely approach these numbers--even when added together?

You could add up the murder counts of Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, and every other despot of the 20th century except the Communist Soviets and Red Chinese--and those numbers would still not match the 80-100 million. Heck you could even throw in the non-Soviet and non-Chinese communists on the non-communist sid, and still the scales wouldn't balance. So just how are purely Christian murders, many in centuries long past, with a much sparser global population, going to add up? It don't think it could even be close.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the number of people now living exceeds the sum total of all people who ever lived before

[/ QUOTE ]

I have also read this in a few places, I have never seen any real math to support it, though. Do you have any links or any other information on the subject? I'm not arguing the fact, but I am interested to try and verify it

[/ QUOTE ]

Although this link refutes MMMMMM's contention it is the best explanation I have ever found using reasonable assumptions. How can more people be alive today than ever lived? (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may2000/957452021.Ev.r.html)

[MMMMMM]

Didn't save any links

[MMMMMM]

Well I don't know, Wake. I'm pretty sure I read it in a mainstream news source, but it could be wrong. I recall that it may have been part of the news stories which came out when the world's population broke 6 billion a few years ago.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I don't know, Wake. I'm pretty sure I read it in a mainstream news source, but it could be wrong. I recall that it may have been part of the news stories which came out when the world's population broke 6 billion a few years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

MMMMMM,

I seem to remember the "rumour" beginning in the early 70's by a heretofore unknown (and since forgotten) writer. As for the population reaching 6 billion I believe that happened on August 9th, 1999. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[George Rice]

The way I heard it was that more people are alive today than have died throughout history. And I heard this 15-20 years ago.

If the numbers quoted are correct, then Communism almost certainly must be responsible for more murders than anything else, and it isn't even close. But I suspect that those numbers are inflated. But it probably still isn't even close. It's probably also more than have been killed in battles throughout history.

The Nazis killed millions. The quoted numbers are probably inflated too. But it was in the millions nevertheless.

Christianity is probably responsible for millions of deaths also. Who can know the exact number?

And there are of course numerous of other mass murderers who existed throughout history.

But Christianity has a unique distinction the other "mass murderers" do not have. Christianity is still looked at with a favorable eye by hundreds of millions who otherwise are rational people. It seems that many just ignore this fact or explain it away.

[MMMMMM]

"But Christianity has a unique distinction the other "mass murderers" do not have. Christianity is still looked at with a favorable eye by hundreds of millions who otherwise are rational people. It seems that many just ignore this fact or explain it away."

George, I think you are mistaking greatly in your comparison somehow.

The most basic ideologies of Christianity do not condone murder, whereas the ideologies of, say, Nazism, and of many other totalitarian political systems, most definitely do (murder for political purposes, anyway). And anyone truly following the teachings of Jesus Christ might well have to be a pacifist--as were the early Christians.

[andyfox]

I don't think it's overly simplistic at all. Studies of "the other" are extraordinarily nuanced in their psychological and sociological insights into behavior. People hate not just because the other is different, but because they fear the other, usually (is not "always") because they fear turning into the other. Note the language about the "purity" of the race that often comes up in white supremiacist thinking.

[George Rice]

Well, better stated that these things were done "in the name of" Christianity, not condoned by Christ. But my observation is valid, I believe.

As far as those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, I agree. But the problem isn't with the teachings of Christ, it's with the interpretation of the men who followed, who bring to the table all of their prejudices and faults. This was frequently the case before the invent of the printing press, as many followers just took the word of the Catholic church regarding the content and interpretation of the scriptures. And back then the church acted like a totalitarian government, and even had armies and fought wars. And while they didn't condone murder as such, they condoned killing for their own "valid" reasons. Many of the totalitarian govenments who murdered their citizens and others claimed justification for their actions, even though you and I, and most everyone else, would not accept their rational. I would think most of us also feel the same way regarding the church's similar actions (inquisition, crusades, etc.). I'm not an expert on communism, but I would be surprised if the Soviet Union, China or others actually followed what Karl Marx had in mind (Did he advocate murder?). There must have been some ideal there that so many found attractive. The problem was with the desire for power, and the ease at which a totalitarian government can abuse it. Those within the church also had desire for power and behaved badly in thier quest for it. Heck, the desire for power in this democracy frequently isn't a prety sight.

[George Rice]

I think the thing they fear is the "purity of race" issue you metioned, as well as a threat to their "way of life."

[MMMMMM]

As long as you're not claiming "all" or "always", I don't think it's platitudinous. But if you write it that way (claiming "all" or "always") even unintentionally, I think it thereby becomes platitudinous, and changes the meaning significantly.

[MMMMMM]

All fair points, I have no major quarrel with this post, although I did with your prior one.

[jokerswild]

.

[jokerswild]

With African slavery, the slaughter of nativ peoples in the Americas, the pogroms against the jews, the inquisition, the crusades, the Catholic -Protestant purges, and the First World War as a start, the Christians far exceed the Communists in the # murdered.

[elwoodblues]

I doubt that DOMA has been challenged yet. I also doubt that it would withstand a constitutional challenge due to its DIRECT contradiction to the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution.

[angry young man]

The Christians have murdered more people in the name of Christ than any other organization in history.

way to tag an unsupported and completely unrelated statement at the end of a post. Incidently I think that sound is the 10mil or so Ukranians starved to death by Stalin clearing their throats.

[angry young man]

[MMMMMM]

Sorry jokerswild, if you add up all that you still don't get anywhere close to 80-100 million. Not to mention that you are erroneously counting WWI as an example of Christian "murders." If you start counting like that then you have to count all the Germans killed by the Soviets in WWII as examples of Communist "murders." But the 80-100 million figure is not counting war dead; it is simply the number of people slaughtered internally by the USSR and Communist China. In other words, the Communists murdered about 15 times as many of their own citizens, as the number of Jews which Hitler murdered. Now think about that.

[angry young man]

The Christians have murdered more people in the name of Christ than any other organization in history.

setting asside that it's completely unsupported it just doesn't make any sense. Christianity isn't an organization, it's a set of beliefs. If you said the Catholic church then that would be at least logical (wrong, but more on the right track). Christians don't do anything as an organization beyond bake sales and bingo. They are members of other organizations (like the United States) who also follow a set of beliefs. If you start throwing out arguments like the crusades or the spanish inquisition(sp?) I'd say that it's really oversimplified to say those occurred because of Christianity. They occurred because of politicians using christianity to manipulate the public for the benefit of those in power. Blaming Christianity for the crusades is like blaming the concept of Monarchy for the hundred years war. If you want to argue that I'm wrong and there are secret meetings where the Christian organization decides what they're all going to do as a group then it's still a ridiculous statement because you're endicting an "organization" for 2000 years of history. Should North Korea be able to tell us "where do you get off telling us not to commit human rights violations? You kept and mistreated slaves for many years." That was only 150 years ago, the crusades where 900 years ago. you know who's done a lot of killing (or murdering, to use the inflammatory word choice you enjoyed)? White folks. Perhaps they're a blight on society. Actually now that I think about it, men as a group have probably done even more killing than white people as a group. Men are clearly bad. To the isle of Lesbos, Greece for me.

[andyfox]

"The fear of the "other" has always, to some extent, been a fear of becoming the other."

Saying "always, to some extent" is a perfect example of poor writing. So:

The fear of the "other" has often involved fear of becoming the other.

Better?

[superleeds]

It is ridiculous not because of your reply but because the only people who have 'murdered in the name of Christ' are those people who have 'murdered in the name of christ'.

It is the same as saying my green thing is greener than your red thing

[MMMMMM]

Fine. Also, I wasn't trying to criticize your writing, but was taking exception because I took what you wrote literally. I think you generally have many worthy thoughts to express on these forums. Sometimes, though, a little word or two really can make a difference.

[angry young man]

you're right that his wording probably wasn't the same as his intention.

Incidently I would argue that no Christian has ever murdered in the name of Christ (killed maybe, murdered no) as committing murder and being Christian (=Christ-like) are mutually exclusive.

[superleeds]

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
But the 80-100 million figure is not counting war dead; it is simply the number of people slaughtered internally by the USSR and Communist China.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalin and Mao would not admit they were murder. To them they were at war, a war to control the hearts and minds of thier people and so their victims were legitamate targets.

For instance I don't hold Churchill responsible for innocent deaths during the Dresden Bombing Campaign, but he was well aware their would be such deaths. He is not guilty because it was legitamate target during WW2. History is written by the victors. And I would suggest that official Chinese and Russian Literature does not allude to these massacres as murder, if indeed at all. But I do not know this for sure.

[MMMMMM]

Of course, no tyrant would likely admit that his political murders are anything but necessary. But regardless of what these tyrants would have said, I don't think that you or I have any doubt that Hitler's gassing of the Jews, or Stalin's purges and gulags, or Mao's purges and deliberately orchestrated famine, were anything less than murde, and on colossal scale.

[superleeds]

agreed.

I just love a good argument /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[andyfox]

Point well made. Thanks.