Please Rate My Tourney Play

[kenski]

I would consider myself to be an intermediate player, but I'd like to get better.

Basically I am looking for you all to point out leaks in my game if you can see any by what I say here. Thanks in advance.

I play mostly single game $10/1 NL tourneys. I dislike low limit ring games because I grew tired of rver rats and I like the power of making them pay in NL.

I'd classify myslef as a tight/agressive play. Here are some stats from my play and then I'll talk a bit about my game. As I do, please respond with any feedback you have about my style - especially those of you who know how to beat the tight/agressive type player.

Out of 129 $10/1 NL single table tourneys:
1st place 10.9%
2nd 11.6%
3rd 17.8%
Therefore, in the money 40.3%; is this good? waht do other people achieve?
4th 14.0%
5th 14.0%
6th 15.5%
Therefore, 4th/5th/6th 43.4%; is this bad? It feel like I should be 1/2/3 more than 4/5/6.
7th 7.8%
8th 8.0%
9th 0.8%
10th 0.8%

Early stages, Pre-Flop:

* I play only hands that add to 20 or 21, suited aces. If I'm on the button or one off, I'll play suited Ks if the kicker is 8 or 9 and suited connectors.

* I only raise if I have an A and a J or better. If I am going to raise I will bet 3x the BB because anything less gets next to no one to fold. I at least want to not have to worry about the complete junk after the flop. I dont like to raise even KQs unless I am near the button and the table has folded to me because if anyone with an Ace calls then I am behind in the hand if I don't flop anything.

* I don't raise PP less then 10 becuase it can so easily be beaten at a big table and also because small PPs are so dangers post flop in NL if you didnt give them away pre flop and you flop a set. JJ I will raise if by some miracle I am in a late position and none or one called before me to try and win it there. QQ I will usually raise to at least eliminate the A2s and K3s. Again, normally 3X. AA and KK I usually raise only 2X to entice someone, especially someone with a low PP to sense weakness and overplay.

* I rarely call a raise cold pre-flop unless I have AQ or better for the same reason I dont like to raise with much less then this. I will call with a PP to see if I can get rags to flop below me or obviously trips, especially if the raiser has raised too many hands at that point. I usually do not call pre-flop raises with anything else. I know some like hands like J10 suited if there are a few callers to the raise, but in my expereince it seems that people defend their raises too much on low limit games, and therefore if I flop a 4 flush or a two-way straight draw, the bets will be too big post flop to give me pot odds to continue, so what's the use of even playing it. I know I could be the agressor with a big bet or raise here, but chaces are if there is an A K or Q on board, the raisers will defend their raise to the death. Thoughts on this?

Early stages, Post-Flop:

* Post Flop I am agressive if I flop top pair because, since I play so few hands, my kickers are almost always good. Typical bet is at least half the pot and as much as the full pot if there is a flush or striaght draw out there. I want to take pot odds away, and for the stooges that will call anyway, I want to make them pay to dot it. I know I am subject to being set-up here by a check raise or even by a small bet becuase I will reaise it to pot. When it happens, I am usually ok with folding it. I also know that someone could check call and then come out swinging on the turn if it is a low card because they know I play tight and chances are that card did not help me (an they could pretend it helped them). Most of the time, I still fold because without seeing their face, it's hard to know for sure. If I am first to act, I bet the same way and if I get called, if I doint think the turn helped them I keep swinging and double my bet from the flop. If they call that many times I will check the river and see what happens. In the long run, even though I am subject to check raises by better players, I think it is better than even money for me to bet strong in the long run. As a result of this, most hands are over one way or another for me after the flop. Thoughts on this?

3rd (and final) part of my message:

Middle and Later Rounds Pre-Flop.

* If I have the chips, I play more hands and take them down with the same agressive betting.

* If I dont have the chips, I do not play many more hands than I do early on. The only difference adding Ax and maybe Kx from the button to collect if the blinds check on the flop. If I have A and 9 or higher I will raise 2x BB from the button.

* If I have $500 and the blinds are $50/100 or higher, for example, you have to win the hands you play. Everyone is shutting down in order to get into the money, inlcuding me. The chip leader almolst always gets even stronger at this point of toruneys.

* If I am really short stacked I play next to nothing and when I do play I am all in.

Middle and Later Rounds Post-Flop.

* I continue to be agressive if I flop something. If I will call a someones raise of my bet to all in, I usually will just bet it.

* If I flop mid or even low pair, many times I will bet half the pot even if I am first to act if there are 1-2 in there with me (unless and A, K or Q is on board - if someone with similar low chips to me called outside the blinds, they have an A, K or Q).

I think that's enough for now. Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.

[cferejohn]

Well, let's start with generalities. It's good to have some guidelines for your preflop play, but like the Sklansky starting hand requirements, they are a crutch that you should try to ween yourself off of. You need to be able to judge situations and decide when and how ATs is playable; not just play it automatically because your guidelines say "if it adds up to 21, I'll play it if there is no raise". If there are several limpers and the guy to your left has shown a tendancy to put in a big raise to pick up the pot in these situations (just as a "for example") you will want to adjust.

More significantly, your guidelines almost entirely concern your own cards and not the tendancies of your opponents. Especially as the blinds start getting bigger, I think knowing your opponents may be even more important than your cards. If the blinds are 50/100, the average stack is ~2000, it is folded to you in the cutoff or the button, and you know the big blind is very tight (i.e. will fold anything less than AJs or pairs down to 99 or so), you are probably making money by raising with any two cards.

You don't say what you do post-flop if you raise and are called and you don't hit your hand (either you have a PP and overcards flop or you have big cards and the flop is all babies). If you only bet when you have a hand, observant players are going to pick up on it. Fwiw, if I'm heads up in a situation like this, I'm betting 1/2 the pot or more pretty much every time (whether I've hit my hand or not).

Specifics:

Just min-raising with AA or KK is probably a mistake. If the BB picks up on this tendancy and has a reasonable stack, he is almost certainly getting odds to call, given that he can define your hand very narrowly and get all the money in when he flops 2 pair or better and get the heck out when he doesn't. If you are willing to min raise a larger variety of hands (say add suited connectors to things you min-raise with), I like this more. That said, I'd like removing the min-raise from your game entirely even more.

Preflop, I would rather limp with 67s in early or mid-position than ATo, KTo, KJo, QTo, or A9o; according to your guidelines, you would do exactly the opposite. Not to say I would always limp with 67s in early/mid position, but if the conditions were right (i.e. the game is passive preflop, but players will hold on to their top pair even when the flush/straight is staring them in the face) I might give it a shot, since it's an easy hand to get away from when you flop less than two pair, whereas those other "add up to 20/21" hands can get you into a world of hurt when you flop top pair.

Also, I'm not sure I'd play suited kings with 8 or 9 kickers, unless I was opening for a raise and could count on the blinds folding as part of my equity, since a) top pair (or possibly even two pair if it isn't top two) will get you in trouble, b) you aren't going to flop a flush draw all that often and c) when you do, you will be drawing to the non-nut flush (unless of course the A is on the board).

The fact that you are very tight after a preflop raise is good. Even AQ can get you in trouble here, but unless you have a very good read on the raiser (i.e. he raises UTG and this player would not raise UTG without AQ or better), I'd tend to call with this. You mention JTs as something you *might* call a raise with in the right situation. I'd be more inclined to make these sort of situational deep-money calls with things like 89s or 78s (if I was going to choose; in some games against some raisers I might call with all of these; in some none of them), since JTs has a much better chance of being dominated when it flops top pair.

Your high number of 3-6th finishes plus your guidelines makes me think that you may not be stealing enough (or at all) when the blinds get high and the table gets short handed. Think about pushing on tight players in the blinds with medium stacks more often in these situations. Note that it is often better to put in a raise here with 72o (when you can easily fold to a reraise) than with KTo or A5s, where you will be tempted to call but might be in big big trouble if you do.

These guidelines are probably good enough to make you a winner at $10+1 sit n goes, but as you move up you are going to need to internalize them and understand the reasons *why* you call/raise/fold.

Hope that didn't all sound too pedantic...

[kenski]

John, first of all, I you appreciate you taking the time and all of your thoughts.

The generalities I gave were mostly to give a sense for my game. I do change it up a bit based on circumstances (for example I will raise AA nad KK bif if I am late and almsot everyone has called in front of me or if someone has already raised it. My goal is to flop with no more than 2 others and to have made them pay to get to that point.

Your thoughts made it clear to me that a leak in my game is that I concentrate too much on my own style and how others might react to it then on the other players and what their style/how they have played to that point and how to act accordingly. I know this seems very basic to many of you, but being realtively new to the game, and with so much to think about, it has been easier for me to try and think about my own game first, now I guess I am at a point to try and think more about others.

[ QUOTE ]

You don't say what you do post-flop if you raise and are called and you don't hit your hand (either you have a PP and overcards flop or you have big cards and the flop is all babies). If you only bet when you have a hand, observant players are going to pick up on it. Fwiw, if I'm heads up in a situation like this, I'm betting 1/2 the pot or more pretty much every time (whether I've hit my hand or not).


[/ QUOTE ]

I generally come out betting if I raise and I don't think it helped who I am playing, regardless if I myslef have a hand or not. I want the decision to be on them. I generally bet at least half the pot or more, bt it a bluff or any other bet.

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop, I would rather limp with 67s in early or mid-position than ATo, KTo, KJo, QTo, or A9o; according to your guidelines, you would do exactly the opposite. Not to say I would always limp with 67s in early/mid position, but if the conditions were right (i.e. the game is passive preflop, but players will hold on to their top pair even when the flush/straight is staring them in the face) I might give it a shot, since it's an easy hand to get away from when you flop less than two pair, whereas those other "add up to 20/21" hands can get you into a world of hurt when you flop top pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am pretty good about not getting myslef into a losing kicker war if I more middle one, so I do ok with these hands. I will bet out with them if they give me top pair, usually half the pot, and the react accordingly if I get raised. Most of the time, hands bigger than these are raised pre-flop at the $10/1 tables, so it is usually not too hard to read. I wont defend a hand like these to the death, they are not worth it.

As far as the mid suited connectors are concerned, I can usually only make money with these if the table is not to agressive in their post flop betting (and they are almost always agressive if there is a pre-flop raise). I know this sounds a bit illogical - like it should be the other way around. However, if I play this hand and flop and two way stright or a 4 flush, I have a hard time holding onto the hand to see the turn or river.

Maybe this is why you suggest playing them from an early psotion becuase I come out swinging and bet pot from and early position if no big cards come and I am in a good drawing situation. Is this the logic here? Better to be the better then the caller?

[ QUOTE ]

Your high number of 3-6th finishes plus your guidelines makes me think that you may not be stealing enough (or at all) when the blinds get high and the table gets short handed. Think about pushing on tight players in the blinds with medium stacks more often in these situations. Note that it is often better to put in a raise here with 72o (when you can easily fold to a reraise) than with KTo or A5s, where you will be tempted to call but might be in big big trouble if you do.


[/ QUOTE ]

I will try this. Since I will typically create a farily tight profiule to the other players by this point, I could see it working out. I, like so may, tend to slow down instead of speed up when there are 4 or 5 left and the blinds are big. I do move when I have cards, and like you said, I am screwed if I raise A5o and get called becuase chances are I am dominated. I'll try this oput and see if it helps. Chances are, it'll get me some more 1/2 places even if it causes me to lose out on a 3rd here and there.

[kenski]

I just read a profle on how to beat what I think is my style of play "tight/agressive" (or at least moderately agressive). It correctly described how I will react to a raise when I am bluffing on the button with and overcard to rags. A good player will probably figure out that I play by the end of a tourney only big hands (maybe this is a reason a shouldplay some low suited connectors), so when rags are flopped and it checks to me and I bet, there probably is a good chance that I am effectively betting that they have nothing that could beat and Ace high (or too scared to call with low or maybe mid pair).

An common example is: down to four players, UTG folds, I call BB on the buttton, with Q9, SB calls, BB checks, flop is 3 6 8, two checks and then I bet half the pot. The SB raises to pot, BB folds. What should I do?

Obviously with the blinds they could have anything, but calling SB of 83 is rare, especially if button calls. Could be two pair. Most usually would have raised a PP at this point in the game so trips seems unlikely. Could be a flush or straight draw. I can't imagine them not betting out if they had an 8 - why put youself in a situation of having to guess if my bet is real or not? I know this will happen with 2 players, but with 3? So my best guess is that he has either (1) middle (or maybe bottom) pair and he thinks (correctly) that I am just stabbing with overcards, or (2) that he has a straight or flush draw, or (3) that it is, indeed, two pair or (4) he is just bluffing the bluffer

My sense is that:
* I should raise back and fold if he raises back again (assume he has the two pair) - unless I am on a draw to the nuts, in which case I might call this raise back, especially since I have position.
* If I raise back and he just calls, then if the turn does not seem to fill in a straight or flush and he checks I should bet strong (half the pot or more). At this point if he calls or raises he has something (or he has bigger balls then me)
* If I raise back on the flop and he just calls, then if the turn seems like it DID fill in a straight or flush, I will slow down, even if he checks to me.

Does this seem like the right play to you? I effectively want him to think I have top pair with top kicker in this scenario (its possible I played with Q8 or K8 and did not raise preflop). I also feel like doing this will discourage others from check raising me with nothing. I like to take down pots when I am in position because I feel it is usually a better then even money bet to do it over the long term, but the cost of doing this is that I am ocasionally checked raised like I described here. Becuase of this, typically up to this point I just fold becuase I feel it is the cost of doing business and like I said, it's better than even money in the long run. I would like to shore up this part of my game bacuse it might be one area that will get me through the later rounds better.

thoughts?

Also, one last point is that I do not always bet if I am in position and the table checks to me (especially if there are more then 3 or 4 in the hand. Then I know I am subjecting myself to check-raise bluffs later on. Early on, I try to bluff only when I have outs (which could be two overcards, but many times is to a bigger hand). Betting bottom or middle pair on the button is not bluffing, in my opinion. It is betting what is likely to be the best hand. Usually (i think) only calling stations will check top pair, especially if it's big, in a low limit game.

[Utah]

Hello,

I think your approach to the game is backwards. You cannot play a formulic game in NL. You play the players. Observing the players and making the right moves based on those observations in the number one thing you can do to improve your game.

Also, it appears you are playing way too much like a limit player and your starting hand valuations are wrong and you overvalue top pair on the flop. Preflop at a full table you want to be playing pairs, A,K and suited connectors around back if you can limp.

Do you know the gap concept? If not, do a search. It is a key concept you need to know.

Also, always focus on winning the tourney. Dont play to get into the money.

[kenski]

Thanks on all points. I started playing limit, whhc is where my pre-flop hand valuations came from so thanks.

I will search out the gaps concept. Not familiar with it.

Again, thanks.

[Bozeman]

Based on your percentages, I would guess that you possibly have these leaks:

Not raising enough preflop shorthanded
Too loose in middle stages
Too tight on the bubble