Answer to AleoMagus (need advice)

[William]

Hi Brad,

I'm very sorry to read about your situation. It is hard to win when you are forced to, especially when it has to happen in a regular basis and with a small bankroll. I mean you are in a situation where you not only can't afford to lose, but you must win before you have to pay next month bills. You are both playing with scared money and can't benefit of the long run aspect of the game.
In other words, you need to find a job. Maybe a part job is enough, but you have to be certain that your vital needs are covered. That will at least remove the stress while you're playing; and if you lose your bankroll, your only problem will be to rebuild it, without having to worry about rent and food.

You have excellent replys to your post, especially the one from La Brujita. There is really not much advice I could give after that.

I, like others had one day to make the decision of playing for a living. In my case it all started with a divorce, it was very hard , my kids moved 70 miles away, and it was a big problem to see them and live a regular life at the same time. To complicate the matter, they showed a great talent at sports, and where they lived, training facilities where really lousy, so the only solution was to drive them to where I live 3/4 times a week; and then there are the competitions every weekend, the sports equipment, and all that.
Needless to say, that required a lot of free time and a lot of money, just the petrol expenses were huge(gas is much more expensive in Europe than it is in the USA).
I had played poker before, but having a job, spending 5/6 hours a day to see your kids and sleeping doesn't live much time to play live poker(usually late at night where I live) and I hadn't been doing well for a while, so I didn't play much.
I had played a few times online and done well, but I didn't even had a computer anymore(kind of all I had belongs today to my ex /images/graemlins/crazy.gif ), but the one thing I had was money enough to play for a few months, without having to worry about my bills. So I borrowed an old, slow computer, but it was enough to play online, had a friend transfer 200$ to my paradise account ang gave it a go. This was in November 2002. I made 300$ the first day, transfered the 200 back to my pal and just played as much as I could when not dealing with my kids. The first couple of months I barely made a thousand, but I could see that there was potential for something serious. It became very quick a matter of being honest with yourself, finding out which games were profitable, which to avoid, even if they were more exciting and the results came inmediately. after about 6 months, I was practically sure that I could make 5000 a month, and I was not playing high stakes. I was playing a lot of 20/30 SNGs, and some NLHE, sitting at the tables with 50, sometimes 100$.
Learning to control the swings was an important step in my "career"; some people are willing to lose a lot of money in one session, if they have the chance to win a lot too. If things went wrong, I didn't went to the higher tables or played higher buy-ins SNGs to quickly recover my losses. That way, any loss would be modest and I wouldn't have to spend a week to win my money back. I have several friends whom would win several thousands in a single session, only to lose them again a few days later. The truth is that there is no mystery, those who were consistant winners before the online era, won online, loosers just send their money to Costa Rica now.
Another problem I encountered was that I was playing too much. I realize that I wasn't winning more after a certain amount of hours (5/6 in my case) and that it was important to plan how long I was going to play and to find some target periods, the time wich was most profitable. I found out that the biggest fishes were the americans - sorry guys, but I guess it has to do with the volume of players, the country that has most players has also the most fishes and the most good players -. Finding the right games was also important, not too tight, not too soft; that's what works best for me.
anyway, in september I moved to PokerStars and a few other small sites. The games there were much better than the ones at Paradise, they had also multitourneys, which I always have had succes with, and I started inmediately making more money. Today I keep around 3000 online between neteller and 3/4 poker sites. It's more than enough and I still don't play high stakes. I slowly move up in the NL tables, but there is no rush, I don't play all the time, because when it starts to feel like a job or I am tired, I don't do well, so rather play a little less, but concentrate and maximize your winnings in those sessions. And finally
I have shortly begun to play live again, after a year break. The online game and the thinking has done wonders to my live game, so it's nice to be able to play among other people again, not always looking at a screen.
I guess I have been lucky. It was hard, but if it is done the right way you suddenly reach a point where the small losses don't matter anymore and I think that beeing able to play without worriyng about your bills is really the key to succes.

So Craig, don't lose faith, get a job that allows you to play a few hours every day, build safely your bankroll again and you will be fine.

And if there is one advice I must give, it's to learn to play ring games. Start low and work your way out, but it's the only way to earn a decent living. All the rest, unless you win a big money prize in a tournament, is better considered as distraction poker. In the long run, you will get burned out, and playing something you don't enjoy won't make things easier.

Good luck to you,
William

PS: I have chosen to answer in a new thrad as I thought that other people would be interested in what I had to say. Hope you don't mind.

[AleoMagus]

Thanks. Good reply.

Yes, I think at least a part time job is essential at this stage. Very interesting to hear about your start.
I also want to start playing live again. There is a cardroom I just discovered in town that I've played at a few times. It is a very crazy game and low limit, but it is sure a nice change from staring at a screen all the time. With a game that crazy though, I think I'd need at least 200BB to play right.

Another interesting thing is that I actually kinda want to get a job again. I never thought I'd say that, but I miss normal work.

Regards,
Brad S

[Pitcher]

Hi William,

Nice post. Between you and La Brujita you covered it real well. Good luck Aleomangus, you are sure to do well eventually.

I have a question about one thing you say. I am playing almost entirely Sit N Go's. I did this to protect a fragile bankroll because I found that in ring games (I would play 2-3 tables of 3-6, 5-10, and sometimes 10-20) I would lose or make $500=$1000. The swings were killing me and I went broke twice even though I was a consistent and winning live player at 10-20 and 15-30. I concluded a big part of the reason was that playing 3 tables at a time introduced too much volatility. After some thought I considered playing only 1 table or playing some Sit N Go's. I played a few Sit N Go's and viola....it seemed to meet some of my needs. I was only risking $10 at a time and my win rate was high. I started to view Sit N Go's as a method of slowly building my bankroll with little risk. I quickly moved to $30 and $50 (which is what I mostly play now, about 80% with an occassional $30 or $100) and found my ROI was consistently over 40%. I could easily see solid progress month to month. Anyway, I am doing well with this and can successfully play two at a time at this rate (if I play more tables than that it affects my attitude and I play worse. There are simply too many decisions to make too quickly for me to effectively deal with) Regardless, I now rarely play ring games. You have repeatedly said you believe that is were the most profit is. Why do you believe this? I am always open to changing my methods if it increases my hourly rate.

Pitcher

[William]

Hi Pitcher,

I am myself found of SNGs, and in periods, I have played almost nothing else.
The problem, at least in my case, is that eventually, you get fed up with them and you need a change of pace. I found it difficult to play well when I am bored, and the solution to that problem, is not only playing ring games, but also playing some other forms of poker.
Playing ring games, in my case NL, I hate limit poker, is a much better business than just playing SNGs. The swings are not that big at NL, and when you have won a pot, you are ahead in real money, not only in chips with no guarantee of cashing. Of course this implies that you are a winning player and that you know how to protect the money you have in front of you.

Ring games are also much more challenging. They are real poker and it takes a while to be succesfull. Sng strategy is quite simple and anybody that is serious and patient enough can be a small winner (at least at the small buy-in's, the larger ones is a totally different story). This is because as you said, the investment is small and that atracts bad players that can, that way, play a lot of hands for a small amount of money and small bankrolls wanting to grow.

It is also a very good way to increase your bankroll, but it is a lot of work compared to ring games.
If I only play SNGs (30/50) 6 hours a day/5 days a week, my expectation is about 3000$ a month. If instead I play only ring games, it is about 10000$.
Of course it is also hard to only play ring games, so it is often a combination of the both + a few more games.

You also have to consider that SNGs are mostly online games, The day you don't play online, you are vulnerable if you can't play ring games.
If you enjoy playing SNGs, and make a profit from them, great, but that shouldn't stop you from learning to play ring games, just start small, and in a few months, it will pay off and you will be a more complete all-around poker player.

Take care,
William

[Stagemusic]

Very nice post O' Temporary Top of the Heap. You obviously bared quite a bit of your soul (didn't even know you had one /images/graemlins/grin.gif ) in that post and thank you. I agree with you on the change of pace. Just this week I was frankly getting bored with the SNG grind and decided that my bankroll needed fluffed up a bit anyhow so I went back and played some ring games. Unlike you however, I went back to the limit games. I played the 2/4 and 3/6 at Stars and had some really incredible results. I actually made more money in 4 hours of play than I could have playing the 3 SNG's that would have taken up the same amount of time. Plus, it was nice to hit the "sitting out" button when I had to leave the puter for awhile.

Anyway, good post. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
it was important to plan how long I was going to play and to find some target periods, the time wich was most profitable. I found out that the biggest fishes were the americans - sorry guys, but I guess it has to do with the volume of players, the country that has most players has also the most fishes and the most good players

[/ QUOTE ]

William,

Since you told your career story in such detail (and thank you for that), I guess you wouldn't mind answering one question.

If you say that playing against the Americans was best, it seems like you have to adjust to their peak hours (9PM-2AM ET). As you live in Denmark, that should mean playing pretty much very-late-nights only, and long hours into the night (and early morning) by that.

How do you adapt to that? It looks pretty difficult.

(I have a similar problem, and I guess other Europeans too).

PrayingMantis

[La Brujita]

William,

I used to think loose aggressive games (with big pots) were the best games in limit hold'em. As I became more experienced I realized that was incorrect, at least for me, a loose passive game was much much more profitable. As I am less experienced in nl ring games, could you discuss what factors make a good game?

I assume many players making the flop, not a huge amount of aggressiveness, and calling stations to pay you off when you have a big hand. What else am I missing?

Regards

[William]

If you say that playing against the Americans was best, it seems like you have to adjust to their peak hours (9PM-2AM ET). As you live in Denmark, that should mean playing pretty much very-late-nights only, and long hours into the night (and early morning) by that.

Correct. The fact that I live alone allows me to play very late at night and catch some sleep here and there. I have of course to adjust my sleeping pattern to my kids schedule, probably not very healthy, but as there are only 24 hours in a day, I have to deal with it.
I can see though, that if you haver a job and a family, it is impossible to do. I sometimes play at european times, but the competition is much harder.

[William]

I generally look for a game with an average pot of over 12 BB and over 30% of players viewing the flop. Not too much preflop action is also good, unless you are a gambler and want to win big pots. A couple of calling stations is always nice.
To avoid, good agressive players raising pre-flop and knowing how to play after and super thight rocks.

[t_perkin]

A few questions:

Do you think a professional online poker player should seriously consider relocating to a country with more favourable living costs and taxes? Seems to me that you could double or treble your effective income by doing this. (obviously you have other issues like the kids)

How long do you watch a table for before you sit down and play?

When you play NL ring games, do you try to stay at a table and build up a huge stack? or do you prefer to move in and out of tables keeping your stack small?



Thanks

Tim

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
A few questions:

Do you think a professional online poker player should seriously consider relocating to a country with more favourable living costs and taxes? Seems to me that you could double or treble your effective income by doing this. (obviously you have other issues like the kids)

How long do you watch a table for before you sit down and play?

When you play NL ring games, do you try to stay at a table and build up a huge stack? or do you prefer to move in and out of tables keeping your stack small?



Thanks

Tim

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I would never move far away from my children, no matter how much better it could get, but I guess if one has no family, no friends, in other words no life, it is an optíon.

I don't watch a table before I sit down, I choose from the lobby the tables that have at least 12 BB as average pot and over 30% as players seeing the flop, I make sure the players I want to avoid are not there,(more important than having the good fish sitting there) and I join the waiting list.

I move a lot between tables, I always keep an eye on the lobby and how the different figures are changing and keep joining waiting lists(you can always say no) and when I have 2/3 times what I sat down with I get out of there, sometimes earlier if I feel that it's not that good a table.
There is no shame in admitting that there are better players at your table, and moving somewhere else.

Hopes this answers your questions,
William