Limit move up!

[SLEEPER]

Hi everyone,

I just had a question with regards to moving up limits.

I have been playing poker seriously for about 4 months now.... I started out @ 3/6 and did well, while gaining experience at the tables. I then decided to move up to 6/12 and have done extremely well, that I am now equipped with a good sized bankroll to play 10/20. I feel very comfortable with my game and bankroll, but am unsure about the experience requirements. I know for the most part, that the players in the 10/20 games at Hollywood Park are weak, but there are probably a few who are better than most that I play with @ the 6/12 tables.

How many hours should I play @ 6/12 before I move up to 10/20.

Thanks for any of the future responses,

Steve

[DcifrThs]

Well how many hours have you played total? can you note most mistakes made by your opponents in the game you choose to play? do you select good games or just sit whenever a seat is available? do you critique your play after each session (do you keep a notebook)? and so on and so on...

basically what you should do (with that adequate bankroll) is PROBABLY just continue playing 6/12 while on occasion playing in what looks to be a good/great 10/20 game. (read: not much raising preflop, players going to far w/ losing hands, poor cold calls on flop and turn etc.)

also, while taking those occasional shots, watch the GOOD players at your table (if there are any) and see how they hands situations that you run into all the time.

hope this helps
-Barron

[mike l.]

ive played a lot at hollywood park. the games there are amazing. the 15-30 there has to be the softest easiest mid limit game on earth.

start taking shots at the 10-20 but never be afraid to step back down to 6-12 if need be. once youve logged 10+ wins at the 10 you should not hesitate to sit in the 15.

[SLEEPER]

thanks for the reply! I do not have alot of experience moving tables, as I always have a good table once I sit down..... most of the players are loose/passive, and a few are weak tight! It is pretty sad to be honest.... I do keep track of all my sessions and keep an average win rate and other stuff. I am pretty good at picking up betting habits and reads.... I am still learning to spot physical tells.... however, little things like watching players to see if they will fold or call/raise is something I have been getting alot better at.... I usually play 2/4 at my friends house every week, and my friends and I are a much tougher table than any I have encountered @ Hollywood.... It is almost like they are making donations! Even the odd good player shows his weakness when he gets upset at losing to a weak player on a low percentage draw....

I think I will take your advice, play a little longer @ 6/12, build up the bankroll a little higher and then sit @ the 10/20. The last thing I want to do is play with scared money..... the reason I played 3/6 for 3 months....

Thanks

[SLEEPER]

thanks for the advice.... I had a feeling the tables were like that.... I mean I see the same person play 3/6 play 15/30..... it is kinda weird!

I think I will play a little longer at the 6/12, gain some more experience and then hit the 10/20 table. I do not want to play with scared money....

thanks

[onegymrat]

Hi Sleeper,

I don't feel that there should be time limit on when you should move up. Take a stab at 10/20 if you have the bankroll and are very confident in your game. Keep in mind that in the future, after you've played a few 10/20 games, that does not restrict you from coming back to your 6/12 game, where you are not only comfortable, but successful. Take it from a profiting 6/12 regular who got crushed when I decided to play 9/18 regularly for two weeks. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Good Luck!

[SLEEPER]

Thanks for the advice.... do you feel you played well and just lost, or that the other players were better?

[Gabe]

The 10/20 only really seems to go on Friday and Sunday now, I think. It is a very soft game. You should be able to do quite well in it just playing by the book. (HPFAP that is)

[SLEEPER]

Thanks Gabe.... How many 2+2ers play at Hollywood Park?

[J.A.Sucker]

I think that my opinion is quite different than the others here. I think you should play higher right now. Take a chance. You say you have a "good-sized bankroll" to play the bigger games, so do it! Really, I don't think you even need that. I frequently play games that are too big for my bankroll, and I CANNOT replace my bankroll. However, I won't ever go broke. Why?

I have a game that I play all the time, and will assure myself that I have an adequate bankroll for it (say 300 or 400 BB's). Anything that's above that, I can take a shot with. Most of the time, I will fail, but every once in a while, I will "get hot" and boost my bankroll to a new level. Now, I can play the bigger game as my daily game. Also, in the process of moving up, you play against better competition, and you will, in turn, improve yourself. Also, you worry about scared money. If you do what I do, you won't be scared to lose. Plus, you need to grow accustomed to losing significantly more money in the bigger games. This is perhaps the most important skill you can learn, because big losses can ignite tilting, which can further destroy a player when moving up. By taking little nibbles, you get galvanized to these things, and you will be better off. Finally, realize that the swings at the bigger games will be proportionally higher, since the players are generally more aggressive (unless the rake is so large that it is your primary enemy, which is the case at the lowest limits). Good luck!

[onegymrat]

Hi Sleeper,

Good question. The first couple of sessions, I had my "A" game and did really well. Then I took some bad hits and started to tilt. This caused a chain of bad sessions. And of course, when you tilt at higher levels, your bankroll gets hits harder.

All other things being equal, IMO, the players at 9/18 are generally tougher than 6/12.

[SLEEPER]

Thanks for the response.... my bankroll is not yet 300 times the BB. I will try 10/20 soon.... I have also gone through stages where i lose some cash, but my mental attitude is pretty strong nowadays.... and from what I hear, at Hollywood Park, the games are still not very aggresive, maybe a few individuals.....

[SLEEPER]

Hi onegymrat,

IMO, I find that the players that play 6/12 at Hollywood Park are horrible.... I would hope that the players @ 10/20 are better. I also think that there is a point where a player who is half decent is the easiest to beat, cause they play ABC poker. I am assuming that once I get to 10/20 I will be playing against bad players, ABC players (few) and a couple of players that are good (tricky/aggressive). That is why I feel that I need to play 6/12 a little longer, so that I can both increase my bankroll and make sure that what I have already seen is the norm, and not what has just occured in my 5-6 sessions.

Thanks for the input and good luck! If you know that going on tilt will hurt you, why do it? I played a hand the other day, where a flopped a set of 4's on a A104r and was beat by a guy playing 109 when the turn came 10 and river A. I was upset, but I kept my cool, and played tight aggressive afterwards.... this is one of my main improvements.... I bet out on the flop, he called, I bet out on the turn he called, and after he checked the river, I checked..... I was happy that I played the hand to the best of my ability, and that I did not lose any money after I was beat! This is what has increased my bankroll, and my confidence...

Hope that helps!

Thanks

[onegymrat]

Thanks for the support. Normally, I'm the one who does the supporting, but I think I need it this time. I've played at HP only three times, and have been up two racks each time. Of course, it's usually after busting out of the $22 tourney first! Maybe I should drive a bit more and share the wealth with you. You don't mind do you? I promise I'll stay out of your pots!

As for the HP 10/20, I hope they're as bad as the 6/12 guys for your sake! I usually play at the Bike or Commerce. Ironically, the Bike has 6/12, 8/16 AND 10/20. The 6/12 and 8/16 are generally the same players, but when the yellow chip comes into play, it's a new cast of characters. The 9/18 and 6/12 at Commerce are generally different players.

And you're right, nothing wrong with playing 6/12 longer. I mean, as long as you're winning, who cares to take on tougher competition? As for me, I just wanted more money! Good luck.

[SLEEPER]

Come on down to Hollywood.... where the players love to donate their paychecks! They are really bad.... I don't even need to think very often /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Gabe]

At one time? I see Rick there once in a while. Ran into David last week.

[El Dukie]

It's the closest cardroom to me, but I prefer The Bike or Commerce. Unfortunately, I only get to play live a few times a month....

[anatta]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you worry about scared money. If you do what I do, you won't be scared to lose. Plus, you need to grow accustomed to losing significantly more money in the bigger games. This is perhaps the most important skill you can learn, because big losses can ignite tilting, which can further destroy a player when moving up. By taking little nibbles, you get galvanized to these things, and you will be better off

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is true. I used to get upset at my losses at 4-8, until I played 8-16 and experienced losing at that limit. I used to get upset at losing a couple of racks at 8-16, until I started playing 20-40. Now when I play 8-16, I have a lot of fun without worry. I have only played higher than 20-40 once, but I think I will take this further and take a shot at a bigger game, win or lose, it will help my 20-40 game.

[bernie]

i read a couple responses, and your comments on them.

you dont have a roll for 10-20 you mentioned. so stay on 6-12, but take a shot on 10-20 at times. move up gradually if you're able. a 300+ roll for 6-12 should be enough to take this shot, though not really permanently move up.

it looks like you also havent gone through the downside of playing yet. in 4 months, with your shortterm results being 'extremely well', i doubt youve had to survive the big test of holdem. which is even though your playing great, you cant win. which can last weeks at a time. THEN you'll see just how well you're doing and where you're at in your game. the first time going through this is when you really start wondering what the hell you're thinking even playing. this is also why id wait to move up permanently. unless, of course, you have a bigger roll for it, just in case. which would be a little more than 300BB.

but by all means, if you have the extra scratch, take a shot. if anything, ive noticed when i took shots at higher limits, it improved my game even more for my normal limit.

who knows, you could be another GOT. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

b

[PokerHorse]

10-20 at hollywood is not as weak as you think. the game only goes on Fridays and Sundays as well.
Most of the players are fairly solid except for seat 9.
i say seat 9 because he will be in that seat every week, and also 2-3 of the other regulars will be playing in their favorite seats as well. I would try the bicycle club 10-20.
There is a fairly distinct change between the 6-12 games and 10-20 or 15-30. There are always loose players, but not as many multiway pots just to name one. I would suggest playing in very short spurts such as one hour at a time until you adjust.
For further info, read my post earlier this month titlesd
How experts make correecxt decisions #2.
good luck

[PokerHorse]

Just going to post my 2 cents on bankrolls. Masons and Daves bankroll requirements are for someone going pro, and
take into consideration large negative swings.
You can easily take a shot with $1500. Buy in for 400
and try to keep your wins and losses in the same range.

The 6-12 game actually plays larger than the 10-20 games at Hollywood. So go for it. Just start slowly to adjust to the different type of action and players.

good luck

[GuyOnTilt]

You can easily take a shot with $1500. Buy in for 400
and try to keep your wins and losses in the same range.

I know I'm on the conservative end of the spectrum when it comes to bankrolls, but $1500 seems really reckless even for a recreational player. I usually buy in 2 racks in a 10/20 game if that puts things in perspective.

Also, I've always found S&M's bankroll advice and examples to be very low. 300 BB's just doesn't seem acceptable for someone playing pro. This is a swingy game.

GoT

[J.A.Sucker]

Their bankroll requirements are probably fine for live games at limits 20-40 and lower for excellent players, which many pros and others are not, though they believe that they are. If one is a smaller winner, one needs more money. Similarly, if one plays on the internet, a larger bankroll might be a good idea, since the games are much more aggressive. Higher limit live games have the same problem, compounded with more skilled players, so the bankroll requirements are much higher.

I pay more attention to bankroll requirements than most players I know (Ulysses will attest to this) because I CANNOT replace my bankroll if I go broke. However, there is a lot of utility in taking shots at bigger games when they are good.

[SLEEPER]

Hi Bernie,

Thanks for the response.... I have gone through the ruts @ 3/6.... I thought it was my lack of ability, and was thinking why do I play.... then I realized that it happens sometimes, read alot about the downswings and understand them..... I thought that you need 100xBB as a bankroll.... I definetely have that.... I think after all these responses I am going to stay at 6/12 for a little while, and maybe play a session of 10/20 the odd time.

Thanks

[SLEEPER]

I am pretty sure I know who you are talking about.... Is the player a big guy?

Thanks for the advice!

I would think 3-4 hours would be a better spurt.... it is very possible for me to sit down for an hour and not play a hand!

[Indian Ocean]

Jump RIGHT in.

No joke. There is nothing like actually experiencing it if you have the proper bankroll

[nofunatall]

Just my 2 cents, but I jumped straight from 3/6 to 10/20, without the "proper" bankroll, and didn't experience alot of problems. That and I always knew that I could just go back down to 3/6(there are no games between 3/6 and 10/20 where I play.). In fact, the first couple times I bought in at 10/20 for the minimum. Of course, having said all this, the players at the 10/20 where I play are pretty bad, basically just 3/6 players with more money.

See ya in the pit!

NoFun

[PokerHorse]

well I have to disagree with you from my experience.
good luck

[PokerHorse]

yes, his name is Brizz, actually that 10-20 is a very freindly game. seat 5 and 6 and 8 will also be regulars

good luck