No fold'em - should I bet to punish opponents on a draw?

[jtc]

I play a lot of loose low limit (live) games. How do I deal with opponents who are on a draw when I have a strong hand? I learned to bet in this situation to punish their bad decision, but if I build the pot big enough, sometimes they are making the right decision to stick around.
For example:
In the loosest 3/6 live game I've ever played (6 or 7 regularly saw the flop) someone caught 2 runners to make a straight and drag a $200 pot (not the first or last of the night).

I'm MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif
EP calls, I raise, MP2 calls, LP1 re-raises, BB calls and everyone mentioned call, all others fold.

Flop (8BB)...Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif
EP checks, I bet, MP2 calls, LP1 raises, BB calls, EP folds, I re-raise, other 3 call.

Turn (14BB)...8/images/graemlins/spade.gif
I'm now looking at a possible /images/graemlins/spade.gif flush or straight draw if a 9,T or J comes, but I'm not going to let up and give them a cheap card (this is my main question - should I keep raising here? the problem now is that the pot is so big that even an inside straight draw has the correct odds to call)
I bet, MP2 calls, LP1 raises, BB calls, I re-raise (mistake maybe?), MP2 calls, LP caps, BB folds, I call, MP2 calls

River (28BB)...T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
I'm nervous so I check, MP2 bets, LP raises, I call (bad move?), MP2 calls.
MP has 2 pair (he only flashed them, so I don't know what they are, LP2 has J9 for a straight. He drags about 34 BBs.

Did I play this correctly? The pot was so big that he was correct to call (though maybe not raise) on the turn.

This is the second time I watched this player drag a monster pot (for 3/6 anyway) on a lucky river card. The good news is that I watched him p*ss most of his stack away playing like this all night. Unfortunately I didn't catch many playable hands, so I wasn't the one taking his chips from him.

[Haupt_234]

I like your play here. You had top set and dragged money out from everyone on a draw/ second best hand.

I wouldn't criticize your play so much when the winner hooked a runner-runner inside straight draw. He coldcalled 2 bets on an overcard flop with nothing... so if he can pull that with a slim-to-none chance, complement him on his play.

His money will be in your pocket by the end of the night anyway if he plays like that.

Haupt_234

[Chaos_ult]

I think I would have played it exactly how you did. You can't really figure LP has J9 from all the preflop action. I figured him for KK or somthing, but as you said, this was a very loose game.

[dirty_dan]

With those opponents you played the hand fine. You flopped top set on a board with no draws and pushed hard and they still gave you plenty of action.

On the turn you still have the nuts. Your 3-bet was absolutely the right move.

Once the river hit and completed flush and straight draws then your check-call was well advised. You're probably beat, but you're getting about 16-1 odds, so you only need to be ahead 6% to make the call. If MP2 reraises then you'll need to fold.

[jtc]

Thanks for the re-assurances. The crazy thing is, the play was like this all night. People were not only calling with garbage, they were raising with it.

One other hand that night, I capped pre-flop with KK and got two callers. Jump to the showdown - the guy who made it 3 bets before the flop had Axs.

[novamob]

Underestimating your opponents is dangerous, but overestimating them is dangerous as well. In my experience, MANY 3/6 players don't comprehend pot-odds, and will run you down anyway. So bet away and make them pay.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn (14BB)...8
I'm now looking at a possible flush or straight draw if a 9,T or J comes, but I'm not going to let up and give them a cheap card (this is my main question - should I keep raising here? the problem now is that the pot is so big that even an inside straight draw has the correct odds to call)

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you rather let them see the river card for free, or would you rather have them pay 3 BBs?

Just because they are getting the correct odds to call, doesn't mean it's wrong to bet.

[Gramps]

Extract the maximum, it's a huge pot, don't hold back.

Bet the River. Call a raise. This sounds like a loose live game where people often over-play their good hands because they're only thinking about what they have, not what you might have that's better. You had the absolute nuts on the Turn and it still got capped with 2 others. Maybe LP1 is playing A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif very strongly, but it smells more like KK, AA, or even A (non- /images/graemlins/spade.gif) Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

As far as MP2, maybe a solid player's play would have indicated Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif or some other flush draw picked up on the Turn, but this is live "any two cards" 3/6, there's a very wide assortment of hands that you are ahead of that MP2 could have been chasing with (Qx). E.g., he paid a total of 3 bets on the flop with NOTHING. I'd take my chances and lead out on the River. You may get called by two worse hands, or even raised by a worse hand.

And if LP1 has an overpair, the 3rd spade may scare him into checking behind. So, if MP2 hasn't caught his miracle card, it may go check-check-check with you holding the best hand.

[LetsRock]

Technically it may be incorrect to build the pot big enough to give them correct draws even if they don't know any better.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to limit the pot size in low limits. It's a concept that is probably more effective at higher limits.

Even if your raises build a bigger pot, you need to charge then maximum price to take their draws. In my opinion (despite it's technically correctness), worrying about giving proper odds consideration is useless against those who don't consider odds to begin with. They're not gonna fold based on odds anyway, so charge them.

[Gramps]

Last visit to my B&M $3/6 live game

I raise UTG with QQ, LP cold-calls me with his J9o

Flop: J-3h-2

I bet, he raises, I 3-bet, he calls.

Turn: Th

I bet, he calls

River: 6h (3 hearts on board now)

I bet, he RAISES me. I call. I'm thinking, "Did he just runner-runner me with the hearts? Did he wait until the River to pop me with his JT? What's going on?" He flips over his top pair with power nine kicker.

Bet the River with your three Queens.

P.S. This guy got up 10 minutes later to go play $6/12. I gotta try that game out.

[Gramps]

I misread that the first time. So...LP (a) 3-bet pre-flop with J9; (b) raised the flop with nothing and called a 3-bet with nothing; and (c) raised and capped Turn with an inside straight draw? Only a total maniac would do that.

MP is the one I would have been scared of when the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif hit. Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif would have been logical the way he played it. If I knew MP was a bit of a chaser, I would have 3-bet and taken my chances losing to a flush (or miracle straight).

[harboral]

Forget about what is correct for the other players and look at what is right for you................if you currently have the best hand you need to keep betting. Pretty simple in this hand example as you are worried about a 5-1 shot beating you and even if you only get a single caller - you are a getting 5-1 on your bet. We should all be so lucky.
AL

[jtc]

[ QUOTE ]
I misread that the first time. So...LP (a) 3-bet pre-flop with J9; (b) raised the flop with nothing and called a 3-bet with nothing; and (c) raised and capped Turn with an inside straight draw? Only a total maniac would do that.

[/ QUOTE ]Yep. He wasn't the only at the table playing like this either. I lost count of how many times people were betting and raising like they flopped a set/top two pair only to reveal at showdown they flopped top/middle pair with a weak kicker. I think I prefer tighter games with smaller swings. Not having a clue what someone could be holding made me too uncomfortable to play aggressively enough.

[Dylan Wade]

Imagine EVERYONE at the table calls your three Q's down to the river. Your three queens are so strong (as a hand and a draw) that you'll win a very good percentage of the time. As a simple way to think of it, you're basically building the pot as big as possible since you will win so often. Sure, QQQ is guarenteed to be cracked occasionally, but understand that you're making the pot huge so that it doesn't matter that your Q's are occasionally cracked. If instead you tried hard to eliminate players with your very strong hands, you miss out on those big pots. You'll be getting about bare minimum with your huge hands.

[Gramps]

I know the feeling in these games, the random aggressive play and wild swings can put your bankroll and psychological well-being to the test. Take comfort if you can in the fact that you made a bunch of post-flop +EV. If your opponents play like this, your long-run win rate will be high indeed. Just like you said, players like "Mr. J9" run through their racks pretty quick, and have a very high "pull more $$ out of the wallet" rate.

P.S. One more QQ story. I once flopped a set of Queens on a Q-9-3 rainbow. I checked, guy to my left bet, after a few callers it came back to me and I raised, he reraised (apparently pissed that I had check-raised him) folding everyone else out, and it got into a heads up battle. He said "let's go all-in, you're going to keep raising, right? Let's go all in." At the club I was playing once it's heads up, there's no cap. So we kept going "raise, raise, raise" until my shorter stack (about $100) was in the pot.

He flips over JTo. Dude is gambling an extra $100 on 8 outs, and even if he gets it on the Turn, I still have ten outs on the River (and he may be drawing dead on the River if I get my full house on the Turn).

I would have been pissed if he spiked an 8 or K, but I'll take that bet any day.

[Ed Miller]

Technically it may be incorrect to build the pot big enough to give them correct draws even if they don't know any better.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to limit the pot size in low limits. It's a concept that is probably more effective at higher limits.

Even if your raises build a bigger pot, you need to charge then maximum price to take their draws. In my opinion (despite it's technically correctness), worrying about giving proper odds consideration is useless against those who don't consider odds to begin with. They're not gonna fold based on odds anyway, so charge them.

Our boy was right to bet and raise at every opportunity. Playing the hand any other way to "keep the pot small" is just tossing cash out the window. You have absolutely no incentive whatsoever to keep this pot small.

[bernie]

it seems LP has maniacal tendencies. though this is only 1 hand. if he exhibits this type of play more often than not, you can then adjust for this.

i wouldnt hold back on my big hands either. bet with abandon. looks like youll get plenty of action. what could the 2 pair guy have had that you wouldnt mind him in the pot with you either while jamming with the LP?

sounds like a great table.

b