Isolation raise goes bad

[sfer]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold 'Em (8 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, SB folds, BB calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.3 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.17 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (11.17 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 11.17 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 11.17 BB, between Hero, Button and BB.</font>

Two specific questions: Bet the flop? Bet the river?

Results in white: <font color="white">Hero shows 8s 8c (two pairs, eights and sixes). Button shows Ac Kh (a pair of sixes). BB shows 9s Kd (a pair of sixes). </font>

[Edge34]

Bet the flop? I say yes, if only to find out just how far your opponents are willing to go. With an overpair to the board, and a strong possibility that you're against overcards, this is the perfect chance to test the waters.

Bet the river? I say yes again, since that turn 10 slowed everyone WAY down - you're probably ahead now.

Make sure you play with Mr. "Call 3 cold to defend my BB with K9o" more often, too /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Edge

[JohnShaft]

Wow I definitely bet the river there.

Why? Well the lack of Turn bet is *highly* suggestive that the Button has AK.
As such it is very likely he won't bet the river, but there is a good chance he will call a bet.
If he has an overpair (very unlikely) he will bet the river anyway. Only the BB complicates the hand, but when he doesn't bet the river I'm not too concerned I'm behind him.

As for your play I don't mind the isolation bet too much, but I wouldn't do it routinely. It would have to be against an observed thin raiser. And one that wouldn't chase to the river.

When Button caps *and* raises you on the flop you are in a tough position, that's why it's so easy for him to get the free card. You could either bet out again, when he might cap, or even worse, call you and raise the turn. You could bet out the turn, but again you could be raised. The turn could have hit you but an aggressive opponent with AA is very like to raise you anyway.

My disagreement is with not betting the river. You have to bet to make him think about calling. Otherwise you are making it pretty easy for him to play AK against you. All he needs to do is raise the flop and then he gets a free showdown. That is why I would almost always bet the river here.

OK. And for what it's worth I hadn't read the results too.
A river bet certainly was going to do you no harm, even if you weren't that sure of a call. It marks you out as someone they can't flaw with one shot to the chin.

[37offsuit]

I don't mind your check on the turn, but when it gets checked through, I'd bet the river when the blank falls.

[Mike]

I am checking the flop, because of pf raising and the probability I am dominated by an overpair. I am also caught between two raisers. I do not want to put overpair in check raise position. Not looking good.

Turn check by raisers screams flush draw or Big cards suited or not. Bet the river if anything smaller than a ten shows up. You will often find someone misplayed their hand but you should win more often than lose in this situation.

Let's see how I did...yep looks normal

[sfer]

Thanks everyone. I was ready to bet the river but I overthought it. I didn't think the Button would cap without AA/KK, so I figured the paired board and play anything BB made him slow down on the turn. So normally I bet the river but I got cold feet and missed a bet.

[Mike]

Missing a bet isn't as bad losing one.

[dirty_dan]

How do you figure?

A bet is a bet.

[zepmetal]

I agree that it looks like hes dominated by an overpair, but how do you play after checking the flop? Just plan on check/calling the whole way? you cant be waiting to improve. Check and call so long as someone in front of you doesnt check-raise? I guess I dont know exactly how to play it if I bet the flop, get raised, then have him bet the turn too. It'd be tough to fold, but...

[JohnShaft]

Hi sfer.

I didn't think the Button would cap without AA/KK, so I figured the paired board and play anything BB made him slow down on the turn
It actually doesn't matter if he's got the overpair, and was scared of the Turn. You *still* bet the River.
Why?
If he does have the overpair he will certainly bet the River if you check to him twice, even if he is scared. But he won't bet the River if he has a missed big Ace.
(The only way check-calling would be OK is if you think he would bet the River with the missed Ace and not call. This would both be unlikely on his part, and very often incorrect play on his part.)

So you still bet the River as he will very likely not raise.
(Of course he may raise you when the BB checks twice, but anyone that checks that Turn with an overpair scared of trips won't raise you on the river imo.)