Need Advice. (long)

[AleoMagus]

October last year I released from the Military and began playing poker as a source of income. I did not quit the Navy to play poker. In fact, I fully expected to get a job until September when I planned on going back to school.

Poker took hold though, and it seemed that job-hunting was pointless. I just needed money to get by and I was content living a little light because playing for a living was a great change. I had been really successful for months before and given my past results, it made good sense to play poker (funny how easy it is to talk oneself into the sense of a card playing income).

Well, of course things did not go as planned. I had expected to increase my usual play to about 200-300 sng's per month and combine that with infrequent ring game play just for a change. Given my past results of over $5/hr in $10+1 sngs, this looked like a minimum $1500/month income. In reality, playing that much poker actually dropped my win rate and I also discovered that for me, any more than 200 sngs/month was actually counter productive.

In Nov and Dec, I made about $800/month and in January I only managed $500 after my failed 30+3 transition attempt. My win rate in 10+1 tourneys has hovered at about $4/tourney for about 400 sngs now. Feb has been a good month until today and it looked like I might make $1000 by months end.

Unfortunately, with Party's tournament shutdown today I played Ring games and the cards ran pretty bad. I lost one $200 pot with pocket kings to another guy holding pocket kings (he made flush). This turned into tilt and before I finally threw in the towel, I had lost about $300 in games I had no business being in.

So here is my dilemma.

With paying bills each month, my bankroll has been a major point of concern for me. I do not have a comfortable amount with which to live this kind of life. I started out with $1000 online and am now down to half of that. My rent and other bills are already paid for march, but I fear that another month of this will have me with no bankroll left at all.

Obviously, playing $10+1 tourneys as a source of income is a pretty bad idea. I think I knew this from the start (hence, my 30+3 attempt) but increasing my stakes was very stressful given that poker has been paying the bills. I know that I could beat 30+3 six months ago with a nice paycheck coming every two weeks. Not so easy with the pressure I face now.

Truly, Poker is a hard way to make an easy living

So, do I chalk these few months up to good experience and put off playing poker as a job until I can do it right (with decent bankrolling/savings and the capacity to play bigger stakes) or do I go one more month.

Geez. 24 hours ago I was not asking myself this question. This loss today felt like a punch in the stomach.

I don't know why I am asking this here. The answer is obvious. Perhaps I am just looking for others to confirm what I already know.

I just love poker, and I know that I have what it takes to win at it. If I had really known that poker was going to be my livelihood these months, I would have planned better for it. The funny thing is, I made a huge cash out to pay off a lot of old bills right before I quit the navy. I also took my return of pension contributions and put it on my student loan. That money would have made a really nice bankroll with which to really give poker a chance.

I know all the books say that pros should have so many thousands of dollars bankroll and so many months of savings but I just don't think it usually happens that way.

To those of you who do play poker as a main sorce of income - How did you start? Should I persist, or should I wait? I know I am underfunded but in a way, who cares? If I go broke in another month I just might have to go a little more into debt and get a job then anyways.

Also, I know SNG's are not the best way to go, but ring games just seem too dangerous given the small amount that I am playing with now. Should I accept a higher risk of ruin and just make March my month to gamble.

Also, Can I really expect to play optimally like this. I know that the answer is no actually, so there is no point answering that. My win rate has been steadily dropping due to a combination of boredom and pressure. That 200+15 multi-table the other day was about the first really exciting poker I have played in ages.

Sigh...

I am really just rambling now, when I know what the right choice for me is.

I think I'm going to have to start looking for a job. At very least, I need a second income.

I hear the reserves is looking for Bridge Officers...

Thanks for any input you might have

Brad S

[craig r]

I completely empathize with you. A couple of years ago I was running really good at poker. I did not have to make a lot of money and really didn't want to have a boss. So, I saved up a bankroll and quit my job to play poker full time. Well, things did not go exactly how I planned. I couldn't stomach always having to play. I didn't want to play, but in a sense had to. Sometimes it would make me feel sick to even think about going. And just like any job that you feel real shitty about, your performance will suffer at work (work being the poker table now). I eventually went bust. Part of the reason i think i didn't want to always play was because i was under bankrolled. So, if I had a few really bad nights I could be out of a job and an apartment. I guess what I am trying to say is that it was a lot of pressure to play knowing I had to be successful.

Well, anyways, I know work full time until I save up a big enough bankroll and then I am going to work part time and play. And the good thing will be if i don't feel like playing i won't have to, because i will still have an income (luckily I am in sales, so even with part time i can still make enough money).

As far as the SNG's go, $4 an hour is not bad at all (considering how much you made it sounds like you would make enough money to survive on); if you play 3 at a time like I do, that will be $12 an hour (i could be wrong here though and you may be playing more than one already and that is computed in the $4 figure). I know I don't make $4 an hour in the $10 ones, but am still making a profit.

I don't know, I am now starting to ramble as well. I think you should just cool out for a while on poker, because $500 could disappear real quickly. And with all the pressure and sudden "lack of confidence" it will more than likely disappear.

craig

[GoSox]

I think you're right in that you know the answer. You are in a tough spot, it's probably easier for me to say, than you to do, but you should get a day job. Build up your bankroll, keep playing on the side, and see how much income you can generate through poker without your roll incurring too much risk.

IMHO..your biggest issue is that you need to win to pay the bills. The relaxed, no pressure approach that allowed you to win is gone and most people will probably tell you that it's when you really have to win, that you rarely do. When you hit a bad stretch you really need to get away from the game for a little while to regroup, and you don't have the ability to do that right now because of the income need.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

[hockey1]

If you're really looking for advice, mine is that you should not be playing poker for a living -- at least not right now in your poker "career". In addition to the reasons, both explicit and implicit, in your post, you should understand that the $10+1 and even $30+3 SNGs you've been playing are very, very soft. If you can't beat them regularly then your game just isn't where it needs to be to make a living. So, get a day job, keep playing and improving, and then re-evaluate when you've got a bit of a cushion.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I hope it helps.

[La Brujita]

I am struggling a lot with the same questions as you are and would love to hear answers as well. I have been kicking around these questions myself and thought about starting a thread.

To give you my short story: I quit my job with a decent bit of money in the bank and started playing poker while I figured out what I wanted to do. Problem is I never got around to applying for jobs. I have been playing full time for about eight months(and net 400-500 a week) so take my thoughts with that in mind. I will just give you my thoughts in a matter of fact manner.

1. Johnny Chan says in a very good article in Card Player that the first ten years of being a poker pro are the toughest. If you haven't read the article go to Card Player today and read it. It talks about the value of starting small among other things. That means we sure as hell are going to struggle in the first few years.

2. Poker in many ways is about discipline. If you want to make money consistantly you have to always be on your best. It is not all fun and games but it is better than having a real job. The more tournaments you play (assuming you don't start to play bad) the more money you make even if you have swings. In other words if you are up $300 and week after 30 hours don't quit playing thinking you have made your quota or drop down in limits so you don't lose your winnings. These are thoughts that popped into my head when I was just starting and are self-defeating. More hours equals more money. You just can't let yourself go on tilt and lose the money you have worked so hard to earn. If you with any frequency it is almost impossiblet to win. If you are off your game or upset for any reason, just quit for the day.

3. Poker is also about constant improvement. You should be reading, studying or thinking about poker away from the tables at least a couple hours a day. Everyone improves at a different rate but the key is to improve every day. You can read poker books free at many bookstores if you are short on cash. I spend a crazy amount of time thinking about poker, trying to make myself better.

4. Make sure you take regularly scheduled days off. This is absolutely crucial to playing good poker. I also play better when I excercise and don't forget my other interests.

5. Playing poker without the proper bankroll doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons. It is really a central concern. Mason Malmouth has written about this in Gambling Theory and Other Topics and in the Poker Essays series.

6. My biggest struggle in poker right now is understanding and dealing with swings. I went through three months of the sickest beats ever; everyone does. You need to have enough money to tide you over for those times. A key suggestion I want to give is for you to get a part time job. It will take some of the money pressure of you, and will clear your mind a bit.

7. I am not sure you can make enough money to live playing $10 sit and gos. Don't believe everything you read about 100% ROI etc. The nature of the game means you have to put in a lot of money to take out a lot of money. I currently play 2-3 $30 sit and gos at once and am starting to wonder if I need to play $100's to make more money. I have played about 250 of the 100's and my hourly rate is much higher there. It just comes with greater stress. William/others if you have thoughts on these volume of money concerns I would love to hear.

8. Ring games make more money for most people than sit and gos. I am 90% convinced I make way more at 10-20 and15-30 hold'em than I do in any ring games. This is after 500+ ours of data (don't know if it is enough). You should be able to play and beat ring games. To win at any poker you need patience and discipline and ring games teach you that. You also need to become adept and various forms and styles of poker, nl, limit, short handed etc. Next on my to do list is to learn Omaha.

9. An absolutely crucial trait to be a winning poker player is honest self evaluation. It is impossible to win if you don't know if you are good or bad, where your weaknesses lie etc. I am not saying this to be harsh in any way, just being honest reading your post it is not clear to me whether you are currently a long term winner at poker. It is very difficult to beat the rake in the long run. Make sure you take advantage of affiliate deals, bonus opportunities to supplement your income.

[AleoMagus]

[ QUOTE ]
It is impossible to win if you don't know if you are good or bad, where your weaknesses lie etc. I am not saying this to be harsh in any way, just being honest reading your post it is not clear to me whether you are currently a long term winner at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, I don't find this a harsh statement. Both you and Hockey1 raise this concern and I will do my best to respond.

I am a long term winner, especially online. In the past, as a casual player with a bankroll which just grew online, I was winning even at the higher buy-in sngs. I am also a fanatic about learning this game and have a library I am quite proud of, including some rare gems I have gotten off the internet. I am sure that poker will be profitable for the rest of my life, as it has been for years now. I keep very detailed records and enjoy poring over my results to be sure that I am completely honest about how my game is progressing.

The real problem now, is just that I might not be winning enough. Between a loan payment, student loans, rent, and living costs, I find that I keep needing to cut into my bankroll.

I do have a similar concern though, and this is just that I wonder if I would be winning against real competition. a 35%ROI in $10+1 tourneys is good, but like hockey1 said, it is a very soft game. Basically just systematic, solid play is enough to beat those tourneys. Perhaps that is OK for right now.

I also worry about the way my results have slid. Before this venture, I had almost a 50% ROI over hundreds of SNGs. Now, in the past 400, I am only at about 35%. I know one reason for this is the sheer volume of tourneys that I play.

I do not multi table, and I think I would make even less/hr if I did. I know a lot of advice suggests that one just needs to put in the hours, but I find too much poker each day is just a bad idea. Around 200 sngs/month is all I can stand and still make this much.

And again, this does amount to about $800 per month, but right now, that is less than I need to get by. Any bad month will cut deeper into my bankroll. This is partly why ring games scare me so much these days. It is just too easy to lose a couple hundred in the bigger games. $25NL is probably all that I should be playing, but I sure do prefer the $50 and $100 (partypoker).

Oh well. I appreciated your post. lots of good insight.
I would still be very interested in other replies about how other full time players started, and how they built their bankroll.

Regards,
Brad S

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
October last year I released from the Military and began playing poker as a source of income. I did not quit the Navy to play poker. In fact, I fully expected to get a job until September when I planned on going back to school.

Poker took hold though, and it seemed that job-hunting was pointless. I just needed money to get by and I was content living a little light because playing for a living was a great change. I had been really successful for months before and given my past results, it made good sense to play poker (funny how easy it is to talk oneself into the sense of a card playing income).

Well, of course things did not go as planned. I had expected to increase my usual play to about 200-300 sng's per month and combine that with infrequent ring game play just for a change. Given my past results of over $5/hr in $10+1 sngs, this looked like a minimum $1500/month income. In reality, playing that much poker actually dropped my win rate and I also discovered that for me, any more than 200 sngs/month was actually counter productive.

In Nov and Dec, I made about $800/month and in January I only managed $500 after my failed 30+3 transition attempt. My win rate in 10+1 tourneys has hovered at about $4/tourney for about 400 sngs now. Feb has been a good month until today and it looked like I might make $1000 by months end.


[/ QUOTE ]

Brad,

A little tough love: are you freakin' nuts? You have to think about the income potential that you are losing by putting gaps in your employment history. Subtract that from your <$1k/mo income playing poker and I think you need to look for a job, pronto.

I don't know where you live, but this is far sub-poverty level income in most places in the US. If you can't make the leap to $30 SnGs, you just aren't ready - you had no business going pro in the first place. I would think that it only makes sense to make the leap to pro if you have proven 50% ROI at $50 SnGs over, say, 500 trials. You're at least looking at $25/hr, then, which may be competitive with a good deal of jobs, depending on where you live and what your skills are.

If I were your buddy and we had beers together on weekends, I'd be pulling you aside at this point and telling you to get your sh7t together before it's too late.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but I think you're on the wrong path here with the potential to get in a heap of trouble real quick unless you can get a surefire paycheck to pay the rent, at least until you hone your skills quite a bit more.

All that being said, you haven't let this go on for all that long yet. You took your shot. It ain't working. Go out and get yourself some steady income. I bet it will make the poker a hell of a lot more fun, as well.

eastbay

[jwp]

I'm glad somebody said what I was too reticent to say. I agree w/ everything eastbay said. Get a job, work on your poker in your spare time and revisit the decision when you feel you are ready.

Good luck. Honestly.
JWP

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Brad,

I'm going to join the chorus in suggesting that you get a day job, for several reasons.

First, poker isn't a reliable income source unless you're very, very good. And even then, there will be big swings from month to month. You need a substantial bankroll -- I would suggest six months' budget income -- to weather those swings and still be able to pay your bills.

Second, you may at some point decide you hate playing poker for a living. (People decide they hate lots of jobs.) And as eastbay said, potential employers will treat the time you spent playing poker as unemployment (at best), or even as a decisive negative. He may think "Do I want to hire a problem gambler, who may steal from me to feed his habit?" I'm not saying you're a problem gambler, but most people do not understand the difference between "professional poker player" and "problem gambler."

Finally, there's the old admonition that you shouldn't turn a good hobby into a job. This is a case of "Do as I say, not as I do," because I've done it twice. I'm a novelist by profession (hobby into job), and I do think of poker as a second job (hobby into job).

I'll be honest. There are times I regret both.

Writing for a living -- as opposed to writing for a hobby -- is incredibly stressful. Although my partner and I make a very good living, we don't get a regular paycheck. And at times that creates cash flow crunches. The work is harder than most people expect, it requires self-discipline to sit down and work every day. Deadlines loom like the sword of Damocles, and as for job security ... well, that's only as good as our latest sales figures.

I often listen to Billy Joel's song "The Entertainer," and especially this verse:

[ QUOTE ]
I am the Entertainer, the idol of my age,
I make all kinds of money, when I go on the stage.
You've seen me in the papers, I've been in the magazines.
But if I go cold I won't get sold,
I'll be put in the back on the discount rack,
Like another can of beans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every artist and athlete -- and I think poker fits into that genre of occupations -- faces that same stress. So for that reason, and the others cited in this thread, I really encourage you to find a "regular" job that you like and with which you can pay the bills, and treat poker as a good second job.

Cris

[AleoMagus]

It is possible that I am in a bad state of mind concerning my realities of late, but a common theme of these responses is bothering me.

I wish that I had not posted this thread in the first place because it has come across as obviously leading to one conclusion. It has come across this way because I know that I need to get a job and I know that I am not enjoying poker as much lately. This knowledge has painted my situation as almost pathetic, and my level of play as mediocre.

As far as being 'ready' to play poker as a primary source of income, I know that I am not. I would like to be clear, however, that this lack of readiness stems foremost from my current financial situation and my inability to play properly in decently sized games. A secondary, but big concern also is my growing boredom with the kinds of poker I need to play to gring out a tiny living.

My lack of success at 30+3 was a short lived attempt with my limited bankroll which scared me after a small run of bad tournaments. I knew I needed instant success and I stopped after I realized that my play was suffering under the pressures I faced. In the long term, I am still a winner at 30+3, 50+5 and 100+9. Lets face it - 30+3 is virtually identical to 10+1.

Ironically, while this has been a stressful month for poker, I have felt my game is sharper than it has ever been. I really feel like a great player these days and I wish that I could just stop the stupid 10+1 sng's all together and play some real players who I am not just waiting to fleece.

My greatest enjoyment from poker this month has come from the few 2+2 events I played, a live multi table tournament, and the 200+15 multi on the weekend.

The reason why I still long to play poker as a job is that it would not always be the rut I currently find myself in. There is the potential for so much more.

Yes, $800 a month sucks for some (tax free in Canada), but it actually is about equal to minimum wage after taxes in a lot of places. Perhaps you think minimum wage is an ungodly low amount to live off, but that is more than most of the world's population gets and for playing poker it isn't so bad.

Do I want to make minimum wage for the rest of my life? No.
Again though, if I can make this much now playing poker - lets face it, there is growth potential.

I just can't help getting irritated when I have been supporting myself with poker for 4 months now and so many of you are suggesting that I might not be a long term winner or ready in the first place.

I can understand it, because I hate to say it - I just assume everyone is a loser at poker until I see a lot of evidence to the contrary. It is easy to make this assumption because it is almost always correct. I would bet my whole bankroll that at least half of the players on this site who claim to be winning are not.

But anyways. I cashed off every cent from all the sites today. I am taking a break and I am going to get a job. I am forcing myself to play no poker for the entire month of march. The jobs that I am looking at right now probably will not make much more than I was getting playing cards, but at least it will get me out of the house and I'll know that each hour I've made another hours pay.

And another thing...

The six months that led up to my poker playing included two months on a warship and a month fighting fires as a part of the Canadian Armed Forces reaction to the crisis in the BC interior. I worked hard last year. I really could care less about the earning potential that I am missing now.

Anyways. I am venting. Today has been a bad day (and I didn't even play poker!)

So, thanks for the advice everyone, but my Sh*&%$t is together and I just need a break from this game.

I'll probably talk to you all again in a month or so.

Regards,
Brad S

[MicroBob]

"I know all the books say that pros should have so many thousands of dollars bankroll and so many months of savings but I just don't think it usually happens that way."

this is correct...most wannabe-pros are under-bankrolled and go bust. this is the reason for the suggestion and the math behind the suggestion that you MUST have sufficient bankroll.

i'm in a comfortable enough position where i can gradually cut the number of hours at my regular job as my poker improves and my bankroll increases. when i have a bad week i can load up on more hours. this really eases any possible pressure...even though i only very rarely find myself NOT cutting my hours.
working 20-25 hrs a week typically with the freedom to take off for a week or so at a shot if i choose.


if you've only got $500-$1000 i don't see why you would be playing in a ring-game where you could lose $200 on a single hand. i don't play NL-ring so i'm not certain....but this sounds like playing waaaayyyyy beyond your bankroll.


i'm not the most skilled poker-player in the world...but i give myself a decent shot at making it as a pro because i am comfortable with my patience and discipline and i am perfectly content to grid it out on the 2/4 tables for as long as necessary.

if my bankroll were down to 500 or so and i HAD to stay in poker then i wouldnt feel comfortable playing higher than 1/2 limit...i might even try to rebuild with more hours on the .50/1 but this would be multi-tabling of course.


you gave it a shot and are clearly a winning player....you're just not able to win enough. and trying to overcome a short bankroll is tough. if you can stay disciplined with a larger bankroll then i suggest you would have a decent chance of making it.

the fact that you seem to really dislike playing after a certain point is cause for concern though....but maybe a better bankroll and a nice winning streak would make the difference there.

gl

[jwp]

Brad,
I did not mean to imply, nor did I infer, that your level of play was mediocre. I tend to assume that the 2+2ers are the profitable ones playing online. After reading your original post, it just seemed that you were in a rut without a big enough bankroll to see you through the downswings.

I don't play professionally, nor do I ever see myself doing it. I've been in the workforce for 17 years and I don't like work! But, I do like security and stability -- and this is the main angle I was coming from. So, I have different goals in playing poker.

On the upside, your job may help you build a bankroll big enough to play "part time". The saving of money, possibly coupled with part time profitiability could help you relaunch your full time career as a poker player.

I'm sure you and I are two different people coming at this from two different angles, and I really hope you find a mix that works for you.

Regards,
Joe

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

My lack of success at 30+3 was a short lived attempt with my limited bankroll which scared me after a small run of bad tournaments.

...

So, thanks for the advice everyone, but my Sh*&%$t is together and I just need a break from this game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Brad,

Considering that you're trying to go "pro" on a bankroll that is insufficient to play $30 SnGs, I respectfully disagree that your sh7t is together in how you are approaching this.

But I do wish you the best of luck both in poker and in whatever else you decide to take up.

Regards,
eastbay

[Uglyowl]

Take my word for it to please get a full time job. As much as I didn't like mine at times and wish I could be playing poker, a job is the way to go. With a job you have medical insurance, 401(K), life insurance and other benefits you take for granted.

Not to get too personal, but I was just diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease. If I just played poker medical bills would have added up to $50K-100K over the next 6 months. Also I have some disability insurance to pay some income. Further life insurance just in case, which lifted a big worry off my shoulder for thoughts about my family.

Just think about that... $4/hour you can make anywhere, but with a full time job comes benefits that most of us take for granted.

Good luck!