Preflop choice on AA

[slavic]

20/40 9 handed somewhat loose game 4 to most flops for two bets. Sometimes we have nutty aggression sometimes we don't.

UTG raises, UTG + 1 3 bets, 3 cold callers to me on the Button I have red Aces.

The small blind already has his 3 bets out to call, the bb is holding his cards in the pitch position.

If you raise post flop action will be nil.

If you call post flop play could get nutty.

[D.J.]

Your 4-bet is not going to knock anyone out, and you already have position, I see no reason to raise. Also, you should get much more information on the flop by calling rather than raising.

-D.J.

[Garland]

Hi slavic,

How's Muckleshoot? When I lived in the Olympia/Seattle area, I went there a couple of times. I went there as recently as last Thanksgiving to visit my parents. Tightest 10-20 table ever! I adjusted my game to be a bit looser and stole blinds and came away with a profit thanks to a generous loose elderly player (raised on button with K3 off and flopped a K...he paid me off nicely).

Anyhow, the heck with this. Jam the pot now! So many callers, you should make them all pay for coming in with whatever inferior hands they have. You are absolutely sure you're not beat so far, so put your money in when you have the best of it. You're not a huge favorite to leave this hand the winner, and you want them to know who is in command. Charge them the max to see the flop, and proceed as the action dictates after the flop.

The only reason I'd ever consider slowplaying AA is when I'm heads up or at most 3 way, where I'd check the flop and raise the turn pretty much regardless of what appears on the flop/turn.

Garland

[D.J.]

Why build a pot now? to make it easier for people to draw out on you? Not to mention killing your flop read.

-D.J.

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
Why build a pot now? to make it easier for people to draw out on you? Not to mention killing your flop read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? You've got the best hand by far. Why wouldn't you want to build a pot? (The pot is already big enough for people to chase gutshots and the like anyway, so your capping it won't change anything.) Sometimes, maybe, you want to keep the pot small so you can knock players out later. That's not something that you do when you're holding the nuts.

And I think that capping here makes the hand easier, not harder, to play.

[elysium]

hi slav
you can cap it. it sounds from the tone that you're not too comfortable in this spot against this many opponents because you feel you are unlikely to flop an A. sometimes, i prefer 3 opponents over 4, but slav, you will likely still be in the lead. everyone could be drawing thin, with AKo and JTs. the high straights will be difficult for your opponents to hit, and while being up against a set is possible, i wouldn't sweat it unless you're calling 2 big bets cold.

another thing, you're not controlling the game enough. when you enter into the pot, your opponents must do as instructed. you need possibly to tutor more, this way, you can instruct them to get out when necessary, or, if your hand can stand a little more action, allow them in if necessary. if one or two opponents get wrestless, isolate them and bring them back under control. your hand slav is a group effort. your opponents should be rooting for you, not getting out of line so.

[Ginogino]

Slavic:
I vote for calling, and not because I don't want the betting to get capped. It seems to me that you learn about your opponents' holdings when you get to see what they do when confronted with multiple choices. If you raise (capping the betting) everyone after you can either call or fold. The players who call your cap bet won't be telling you much about their hands. Give someone the choice to raise, call or fold and you uncover more information from the choice he makes. I'll often pass up the chance to cap against multiple raisers because I want to see what the next player will do if he has the choice to raise (and sometimes he'll call or fold, putting the next player in the spotlight).

Gino

[Philuva]

If the SB is going to call 3, he is probably going to call 4. So that is 6 additional players in the hand. That is 3 additional big bets you earn by capping preflop. I would take the extra bets now.

You will still be able to get a good read on the flop, depending on if someone bets into your cap on the flop, CR's your cap on the flop, etc.

Take the extra bets now in the best position. It can be hard to make up 3 extra big bets in your post flop play.

[SA125]

"UTG raises, UTG + 1 3 bets, 3 cold callers to me on the Button I have red Aces"

It's 3 bet and 3 coldcallers.

"Sometimes we have nutty aggression .."

I think that's an understatement.

Raise, although elysium makes a good point about them maybe being dead. Sounds like all the pots are big and you have the best hand to start. Bleed the blinds dry.

[bernie]

what's wrong with taking down a 12+BB pot on the flop? sounds good to me. if they fold on the flop, it'd likely be a mistake.

though im sure there's some merits to just smoothcalling it.

i like clarks old line about just ramming it down their throats and see who calls.

b

[bernie]

people will already have odds to draw on the flop. he mentioned flop action would be nil, which indicates theyd likely make a mistake and fold when they should call.

if anything, this can help your flop read, not kill it. they generally wont make a move without being able to beat a big pair.

b

[SoBeDude]

The 4bet is a VALUE raise, not to knock people out.

Against 9 random hands all going to the river, AA still wins 31.1% of the time. ( http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm )

Against 6 opponents with better than 'random' hands who will fold if they totally and completely miss the flop, your aces have to be good (I'm guessing) 45% of the time.

So are you favored to win? maybe not, maybe its a coin flip.

BUT you're getting 6-1 on your money! So if your cap gets 6 more bets into the pot, your equity of that additional money is close to 3 bets! Just by capping.

This play is hugely +EV. It is the single biggest EV preflop play you will ever have the opportunity to make in holdem.

Not making it is a crime against humanity. (thanks David for that line)

-Scott