hand #4

Playing 4-8 today.


I have Qd2d in BB. There are 2 callers (who are loose-passive and have played every hand so far) to the button who raises. The SB calls. Now the button is a loose raiser and the SB has gone to war with him a couple of times.


I call.


The flop is AA6 with 2 diamonds. I open the betting and everyone calls.


The turn is a 7s and its checked around.


The river is a 2c and its checked to the button who bets. Now the SB folds and I can see the other two will fold. I fear the button may have a King or a better Queen so I raise. I take a significant (maybe 10 seconds) to decide on this. The button reraises. I throw it away. He shows Td9d.


I go on to find out that he will check or bet/raise the turn at random whether he has a hand or not (but he won't randomly fold a good hand, of course) so my initial read on him was *dead* wrong.


If you've read the other 3 hands, you've seen the kind of players I beat up on and the kind of players who beat up on me.


Comments?

i have read all four of these posts, and, after the comment you received for your initial post of a week or so ago, i am impressed by your leather skin and that you have come back to post mini-similarly again


my personal conclusion taking all so far into consideration is that your game would be very hard to read


however, i would also say that you should consider re-evaluating your opening and raising requirements - money saved there might well turn your $200 loss into a small profit


my compliments on your strength of character and your obvious healthy self confidence


good luck with your task

1. You paired the 2 on the end. You beat plain kings and queens.


2. I don't know if I could call on the end here, since the 3 bet takes some real courage and most people wouldn't do it. I really think you should post results for these sorts of things in a separate message. With prompting, it's easier to reason out a call. I'll do it now:


The 2 didn't help the button.

The button checked the turn last to act. He doesn't have an ace or 88-KK.

The button seems aggressive and observant; he shouldn't fear a checkraise on the turn since no one would expect him to bet. I think the button can therefore bet 6s or 7s on the turn too.

The button raised preflop, so something like 87s is even less likely.


In other words, it's hard to put the button on a hand that beats yours.


3. I don't like the preflop call. The 2 kicker is awful, and the queen-high draw is not that strong. The pot only has 4 opponents, which is not really that many. Lastly, the pot can get raised behind you.


4. I like the turn check after your flop bet is called. It looks like a slowplayed ace is possible; you're not likely to win the pot; and you want to see the river cheap.

IMO, the best part is when the turn is checked through, you have an bet on the river (unless the last card is scary) with the size of this pot. You can mimic a missed checkraise on the turn, and you already showed aggression earlier in the hand, so it's not obviously a steal. You can take it down at least 20% of the time here.

I'm curious who will call the river against tougher opponents, so I asked this question on the medium stakes forum. Let's see if anyone thinks it's an obvious fold or an obvious call.


I hope you don't mind Aaron. I think this is a really interesting situation you have at the river. I wonder if better players than I can see what's going on without results based analysis. I doubt I would have at the table.

I think the 10 second pause cost you the pot to be honest. My thoughts on this is that 95% of low limit players arent capable of throwing away any hand for a raise on the river. You obviously can, and it was noticed and it was used against you. I don't think you did anything wrong, you were just outplayed by a gutsy move from an observant opponent, it happens. The 10 second pause and then raise made him think "he doesn't have a strong hand, but thinks I'm stealing".

In games where you get 5 callers preflop, whenever an ace flops you have to be aware that someone probably has it.


People love to slow roll and try every "tricky" play in the book when they flop two aces, whether they have the ace or not.


Firstly, I wouldn't have played Q2 suited. Secondly, when the 2 aces flop im folding whether there is a flush draw or not, since I don't want to get in a raising war on the turn between 1 maniac bluffing and another maniac with an ace.


This hand is a good example why hands like Qx Suited and Kx suited shouldn't be played if it can be avoided. Your best flop is a flush draw, and you frequently can't afford to play that draw when the flop is paired.


I wouldnt play Qx suited in any situation. I have been known to play Kx suited on the button against a full field, and top it up in the small blind. Other than that I would leave these hands to the fish you are trying to beat.


Wardy

Well, I'm sitting there thinking on the river that the button has nothing but I can't bluff into the other 3 players. When the button bets it opens the door. With ~$80 in the pot and I had to put in $16 to bluff I have to think I'll win right there (insert mental arithmetic that took me about 10 seconds) around 20% of the time? So I took a stab at it.


I don't think that I can take it down by betting out the river 20% of the time. Otherwise I would have tried it.

I agree.


I'm also saying that I have no problems beating players who think more or less like I do (read the first two hands). But I can go maybe 4 hours not winning a pot on a table full of really loose players (see hand 3).


And I can have problems beating a player who has a better feel for the game. Like above.


You can think you're getting pretty good at this game until you face a player who can 3-bet you on the river when you have nothing because he knows you think he has nothing--and you'd never go so far yourself.

What "tricky" play is there? If someone takes over the betting on the turn, they have an Ace or a full house. I could be drawing dead but I'm not going to dump 5 more bets into the pot when I hit my flush. If this tricky player doesn't start raising on the flop then he is only fooling himself. I generally like playing this sort of "tricky aggressive" player.


Now, if you dump Q2s from BB when there is a loose raiser on the button, you know there will be 5 people seeing the flop, and you know you won't be reraised--you're giving up too much.

Funny, I didn't even look at the size of the pot. I just made what I thought was a conservative guess at how often you will take the pot. It does depend on the games you're in, of course.


Anyway, I think here, the fact that you paired the 2 is key. If all those other people were on draws, then you're ahead now. If one of them wasn't on a draw (had a 6 or 7), then I would think he'd bet the turn or the river. Certainly a reasonable player on the button would bet one of these pairs.


Okay ... suppose button does have a 6 or 7 on the turn, and he won't bet for fear of a raise. Then he bets the river because it's checked around to him again. He's unlikely to fold for a raise on the river. Your river raise's value has to come from worse hands calling, putting you on a counter-steal.

#1:"Prelude:

In 4-8 I'm playing Ad5d in middle position. There is a middle caller who is a good player and a late caller and the blinds. We all call and see a flop. The flop is 335 with two spades. I open the betting and the good player raises. The late player calls and the blinds call and I call. The turn is an offsuit Jack and I bet. The good player folds and the late player calls. The river is an Ace. I bet, get called and take it down. The good player tells me that she had 88 but couldn't just call me after the Jack fell and couldn't raise with other people still to act behind her. I think to myself that this is good to know. I told her that I thought she had a straight draw. If she thought about that a little, I think this could have put her on tilt--but this isn't the point.

The hand (another day):

So I have KK in SB. A bunch of callers including the same good player in the middle of the table. I raise. I flop my set, but there is a diamond draw on board and I have no King of diamonds. Well, I bet out and get called in three places, including the good player. The turn is a blank and I bet out again and get called by only the good player. The river pairs the board and the diamond draw doesn't get there and I have the top full house. I bet. She raises. I reraise and don't get payed off. I also don't show what I have and neither does she."


-> Not too much to say about the KK hand. I assume your point was that your somewhat loose aggressive play in Ad5d hand helped you get more $ on hand 2? Or that you knew she would call you with lesser hands now? Not sure this hand points that out clearly since your decisions were fairly routine since you had a farking monstah. If you had had AK, would you have folded? Or would you have called because you knew she had lost some respect for you and would therefore be taking shots at you with weaker hands?


#2: "Prelude:

4-8 hold'em. A middle player who is playing reasonably well calls. The player to his left calls. I call with Q8s from the button. The blind to my left folds, and he is another reasonably good player. The BB checks. I've been talking to the player on my left all night and neither of us has been hitting. Well, the flop is Q-high and unremarkable. The middle player who open-called bets out. The player to his left calls and I call. BB folds. The turn is a blank. I open the betting and the middle player raises. The other middle player calls cold. I think about it and muck. I tell the player to my left that I think he has Aces. Actually he turns over KK on the river to take it down. I forgot that on the turn, I was closing the action and could call with 5 outs but there was another player calling two cold on the turn. I dunno, but this isn't the point anyway.

The good player on my left says to me: "Good read. How'd you know?" I tell him I don't know (although this isn't quite true but that isn't the point either).

The hand:

I have AJ in UTG+2 and open-call. The good player to my left calls. In all there are 5 calls plus the blinds who call. The flop is AT4. I open the betting. The good player to my left raises. We get everyone to call. I reraise. Everyone calls. The turn is a 7. I open the betting. The good player to my left says out loud, to himself: "What could he have?" Then he mucks. So I tell him we had the same hand and show him. We're still in the middle of the hand but he can't help but shout out that yes we had the same hand. I end up taking it down unimproved for a good sized pot. "


-> The point being that you had him intimidated with your hand reading skills? Ok thats fine. Excellent if you make comments during hands heads up with him later such as "I like one of your cards, but I think that other one is going to get you in trouble" as well as often staring him down when he bets as if you were reading his mind. After instilling that sense of fear in him, you must exploit it to the maximum, which you did this hand, by making him confused about the correct course of action. You do have very good hand reading skills, certainly better than mine I think.


"#3: Playing 4-8.

I have QQ UTG and raise. I get two cold callers and the blinds call. The flop is T54. I bet and get called by the two players not in blind. The turn is a K. I bet and get 2 calls. The river is a J. It's checked around. The first cold-caller had 54o and takes it down. Of course, this is a stupid story, but compare it to the others below. "


-> The point of this story...hrmm...I don't know. You lost the minimum on the hand? That 54o man plays like an idiot? Lets say he raises the flop as he should. You likely reraise and he calls. The turn is a king and it gets checked down all the way most likely. So you lose 2 extra SB on the flop, but avoid losing one BB on the turn. Its a wash. However, thats only because the turn is an overcard to your Q. If the turn is a 2 or something, you probably lose at least an extra BB if he plays correctly.


#4: "I have Qd2d in BB. There are 2 callers (who are loose-passive and have played every hand so far) to the button who raises. The SB calls. Now the button is a loose raiser and the SB has gone to war with him a couple of times. I call. The flop is AA6 with 2 diamonds. I open the betting and everyone calls. The turn is a 7s and its checked around. The river is a 2c and its checked to the button who bets. Now the SB folds and I can see the other two will fold. I fear the button may have a King or a better Queen so I raise. I take a significant (maybe 10 seconds) to decide on this. The button reraises. I throw it away. He shows Td9d."


->I have to agree with the others that I don't like your preflop call, especially with two players who are likely to go to war with each other and make the draw very expensive if I happen to flop my draw. Of course, there are extra payoff possibilities, but I tend to think that LLHE players "read" flush draws very well (or at least they fear them if they hit), so they won't go to war with you if you make your flush.

On the river, again I don't see your worry about a better Q or a K, since you have a pair of 2's. If you did the hand wrong and all you had was actually queen high, then I think its a worthwhile shot but that you have to fold here to his 3-bet since I often have no idea how people will play flopped trip aces. If you have the 2's, I think a river call is in order (and not a river raise).


Final comment: "If you've read the other 3 hands, you've seen the kind of players I beat up on and the kind of players who beat up on me"


->You have trouble with very aggressive players since you see so many weakly bet hands that when you see someone show mega-aggression, you assume its a monster and don't usually call with marginal hands (I remember an AK hand in Edmonton where you folded to a three bet on the flop of K-9-4 rainbow). They can sometimes push you around (too bad you know me too well or I'd destroy you!).

You do well against the kind of players who take time to put you on a style of play or an image, and then make decisions based on that image, and you are capable of changing your game to fit what they think of you (if they think you are loose, you play tight, if you they think you are tight you play loose; in the KK hand you took advantage of a player who thought you played loose, in the AJ hand you took advantage of a player who thought you played tight).

I'm saying, here's the types of players I do well against and here's the types of players I don't do well against.


Actually, the person in the 'stupid story' I'll beat anyway, but it takes me a long time to get the hands and have them hold up. But it's not poker and not a game at that point. You're just hanging around waiting for good starting cards to come your way and folding the flop most of the time even when you get pretty cards. These people suck to play against. It's just not interesting.


And I just like to watch the people in hand #4 play and take pots that I wouldn't be able to take.


I was playing a little 15-30 one day and there was this one guy there who a few of the players seemed to fear. He would enter with bad cards. Then he would proceed to go runner-runner whatever and beat the other player in the pot. Or he would just bet and take down a pot. Or he would throw away what looked to be a strong hand at the appropriate point (he wasn't very careful about not showing me his hands when I wasn't in a pot). Now, if someone could see all the cards face up it would look like they were playing with an idiot. And remember that this was 15-30 so every hand was head-up by the river. But when he was in a hand his opponent would always adopt a manner so that you could tell how strong his cards were. And that's the method to his madness. You could feel the fear from his opponents if their hand was weak, and you could feel confidence or an "I told you so" arrogance if his opponent had a strong holding. All inspired from the fear that his starting cards may have accidentally hit the board--again. Now, I can't get this from my opponents but it's interesting to watch.