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Cyrus
02-23-2004, 11:01 AM
It seems that the truth cannot be hidden for ever! Here's from the New York Times editorial page:

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — It is a virtual reflex for governments to plead security concerns when they undertake any controversial action, often as a pretext for something else. Careful scrutiny is always in order. Israel's so-called security fence, which is the subject of hearings starting today at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, is a case in point.

Few would question Israel's right to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks like the one yesterday, even to build a security wall if that were an appropriate means. It is also clear where such a wall would be built if security were the guiding concern: inside Israel, within the internationally recognized border, the Green Line established after the 1948-49 war. The wall could then be as forbidding as the authorities chose: patrolled by the army on both sides, heavily mined, impenetrable. Such a wall would maximize security, and there would be no international protest or violation of international law.

This observation is well understood. While Britain supports America's opposition to the Hague hearings, its foreign minister, Jack Straw, has written that the wall is "unlawful." Another ministry official, who inspected the "security fence," said it should be on the Green Line or "indeed on the Israeli side of the line." A British parliamentary investigative commission also called for the wall to be built on Israeli land, condemning the barrier as part of a "deliberate" Israeli "strategy of bringing the population to heel."

What this wall is really doing is taking Palestinian lands. It is also — as the Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling has described Israel's war of "politicide" against the Palestinians — helping turn Palestinian communities into dungeons, next to which the bantustans of South Africa look like symbols of freedom, sovereignty and self-determination.

Even before construction of the barrier was under way, the United Nations estimated that Israeli barriers, infrastructure projects and settlements had created 50 disconnected Palestinian pockets in the West Bank. As the design of the wall was coming into view, the World Bank estimated that it might isolate 250,000 to 300,000 Palestinians, more than 10 percent of the population, and that it might effectively annex up to 10 percent of West Bank land. And when the government of Ariel Sharon finally published its proposed map, it became clear the the wall would cut the West Bank into 16 isolated enclaves, confined to just 42 percent of the West Bank land that Mr. Sharon had previously said could be ceded to a Palestinian state.

<font color="red"> The wall has already claimed some of the most fertile lands of the West Bank. And, crucially, it extends Israel's control of critical water resources, which Israel and its settlers can appropriate as they choose, while the indigenous population often lacks water for drinking. </font>

Palestinians in the seam between the wall and the Green Line will be permitted to apply for the right to live in their own homes; Israelis automatically have the right to use these lands. "Hiding behind security rationales and the seemingly neutral bureaucratic language of military orders is the gateway for expulsion," the Israeli journalist Amira Hass wrote in the daily Haaretz. "Drop by drop, unseen, not so many that it would be noticed internationally and shock public opinion." The same is true of the regular killings, terror and daily brutality and humiliation of the past 35 years of harsh occupation, while land and resources have been taken for settlers enticed by ample subsidies.

It also seems likely that Israel will transfer to the occupied West Bank the 7,500 settlers it said this month it would remove from the Gaza Strip. These Israelis now enjoy ample land and fresh water, while one million Palestinians barely survive, their meager water supplies virtually unusable. Gaza is a cage, and as the city of Rafah in the south is systematically demolished, residents may be blocked from any contact with Egypt and blockaded from the sea.

It is misleading to call these Israeli policies. They are American-Israeli policies — made possible by unremitting United States military, economic and diplomatic support of Israel. This has been true since 1971 when, with American support, Israel rejected a full peace offer from Egypt, preferring expansion to security. In 1976, the United States vetoed a Security Council resolution calling for a two-state settlement in accord with an overwhelming international consensus. The two-state proposal has the support of a majority of Americans today, and could be enacted immediately if Washington wanted to do so.

At most, the Hague hearings will end in an advisory ruling that the wall is illegal. It will change nothing. Any real chance for a political settlement — and for decent lives for the people of the region — depends on the United States.

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Gamblor
02-23-2004, 12:30 PM
The Green line is as anachronistic as you claim Zionism is.

There is no sovereign nation that owns the land upon which the fence is being constructed, and as such, cannot be in violation of any international law.

By presupposing Palestinian statehood, Palestinian Propagandists like yourself are altering the facts as they are, instead choosing to state facts as you would like them to be.

There is no such thing as "Palestinian Lands" because there is no such thing as Palestine.

Were this 55 years ago, and the Arabs had agreed to the partition, you would be correct. But this is not the case, and as such you are a vicious liar. Unfortunately, the people who believe that there is already a de facto Palestinian state are just as gullible as you are.

I am interested in peace to the extent to which it guarantees my survival. For people who have been educated from birth to hate Jews, it will take a little more than a few acres of land to change their minds.

George Rice
02-23-2004, 12:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Were this 55 years ago, and the Arabs had agreed to the partition, you would be correct. But this is not the case, and as such you are a vicious liar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow Cyrus, I didn't know you wrote the New York Times Editorial Page. lol.

A few suggestions for Cyrus. When quoting another source enter it as a quote so others don't mistaken it for your own writing. It also helps make clear where the quote ends and your comments begin. Also, when adding empasis that isn't in the source, indicate where you do this. "(Emphasis added)" immediately following the paragrah containing the emphasis is customary, or in this case, following the quote if all emphasis within the quote is yours. Obviously it isn't necessary when the emphasis is obviously yours, as I did above. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

adios
02-23-2004, 01:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that the truth cannot be hidden for ever! Here's from the New York Times editorial page:

[/ QUOTE ]

The New York Times the bastion of truth, just refer to the Jason Blair debacle. I heard some story this weekend that Blair wants to sponsor a journalism scholarship at his alma matter but they said no thanks.

Gamblor
02-23-2004, 01:09 PM
is that Cyrus didn't write that article.

But he agrees with the premise of the fence's supposed illegality, due to it's being built on Palestinian lands.

Which don't exist, and anyone who claims they do is, as I stated, a vicious liar.

I'm all for peace, but where the necessary negotiations stop and start is fundamental. And if they start at a Palestinian state and end at Palestinian gains, that can not be allowed. If they start at the current truth, and end at a Palestinian state living peacefully with Israel, well that discussion can be considered.

The Palestinian state is still an abstract, theoretical notion and can only be treated as such.

But a Palestinian state that forbids the presence of Jews as equals, sorry, that doesn't cut it. Go ask the Hamas what they think of that idea.

George Rice
02-23-2004, 01:38 PM
What do you propose be done with the Palestinian people?

Gamblor
02-23-2004, 02:17 PM
They have the right to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't kill me. That's the beauty of the world, they can do whatever they want to ensure their own survival. But belligerent actions against another people solely based upon their religion, that's unacceptable.

to the International Court of Justice:

"You have no right to serve as the moral conscience of the Jewish people. We have our own conscience. Now our conscience tells us that saving our own lives is more important than preserving somebody else's quality of life. Quality of life is always amenable to improvement. Death is permanent"

-BN

Chris Alger
02-29-2004, 03:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Were this 55 years ago, and the Arabs had agreed to the partition, you would be correct. But this is not the case, and as such you are a vicious liar.

[/ QUOTE ]
But the Arabs did agree to the partition of Palestine 50 years ago, specifically on 12 May 1949 when they signed the May Protocol of the Lausanne conference. The protocol recited that "the 'Working Documents' attached hereto, be taken as basis for discussion with the (Palestinian Reconciliation) Commission." The "working documents" so referenced consisted of "the Partition map annexed to General Assembly Resolution 181(II) of 29 November 1947." (Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs). Thus, "eighteen months after the Arabs had rejected the partition resolution, they accepted it as a basis for negotiations when they signed the protocol." Pappe, Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, p. 211. Israel also signed the protocol and in so doing effectively revived UNGAR 181, including the division of Jerusalem, as Israel purported to accept in Nov. 1947.

The subsequent negotiations failed, however, not because of Arab hostility to partition but because Israel demanded retaining the fruits of conquest and ethnic cleansing: no withdrawal from the armistice lines and no significant repatriation of refugees. "On 14 May the Israeli delegtion stipulatd a number of additional conditions which in fact formed a reversal of the Israeli position." Walter Eytan, head of the Israeli delegation later explained: "My main purpose was to begin to undermine the protocol of 12 May, which we had signed only under duress of our struggle for admission to the UN. ... I felt the important thing was to begin to get the commission used to the idea that the protocol was not the main thing and that we should sooner or later base ourselves on the armistice arrangement," which of course meant no Palestinian state. Id. at 212. According to the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH019n0), the Arabs favored partition while Israel didn't: "The Arabs claimed that, by signing the Protocol, Israel in a manner recognised the 1947 Partition Plan. Israel held that the map was to be taken, as the text of the Protocol stated, as a, and not as the, basis for negotiations." Since the protocol didn't absolutely mandate partition, Israel was able to worm out of its supposed commitment to a two-state solution.

It was therefore Israel who torpedoed partition for 50 years, not the Arabs.